The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

1. Questions to the Minister for Climate Change

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Good afternoon and welcome to this afternoon's Plenary meeting. Questions to the Minister for Climate Change are first this afternoon. Question 1 [OQ60703] is withdrawn. Question 2 is first, therefore. Sioned Williams.

Public Transport in South Wales West

Sioned Williams AS: 2. How is the Government supporting public transport in South Wales West? OQ60682

Lee Waters AC: Thank you for the question.

Lee Waters AC: Delivering our vision of safe, accessible and affordable public transport across Wales continues to be our priority. The Welsh Government continues to provide high levels of public subsidy to support public transport.

Sioned Williams AS: Diolch, Weinidog. In a report discussed this morning by the corporate joint committee for south-west Wales regarding their regional transport plan, they said that the current transport network does not adequately serve the people of the region, and this is contributing to poor outcomes including limiting access to employment, ill health, negative environmental impacts and social exclusion, and later on it says that rail and bus services provide key linkages between main areas of population, but both have seen limited investment in the recent past. And at a time, of course, when the region’s economy will be greatly impacted by the threat to jobs at Tata Steel, an inadequate transport system will serve to amplify the economic challenges and deepen social inequalities.
There’s been some good news recently with the coalition administration at Neath Port Talbot Council successfully reinstating a number of bus routes that had been cut earlier in the year—ones that I’d referred to previously in the Chamber—and that ongoing work on the Swansea bay and west Wales metro has resulted in a number of feasible recommendations. However, while the evidence of progress on the south Wales metro is unmissable when travelling through the neighbouring Valleys communities, there’s been no similar physical progression for many of the communities that I represent. So, can the Deputy Minister provide an update on the progress of the Swansea bay metro and timescales for when residents can expect to see improvements? Diolch.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you, and I agree, also representing an area in south-west Wales, on the importance of the south Wales metro. We’ve always said that we’re going to have to do the metros in sequence, and we’re starting with the south-east Wales metro and the work is ongoing on the north and, to a slower extent, on the south. And this happens in parallel, of course, with the regional transport plans that are being asked to be developed by the corporate joint committees. We’ve now moved the metro development teams that we had, including the one in the south-west, to become regional transport teams to work with the local authorities. So, Transport for Wales provides that expertise and that capacity to local authorities that often struggle with that in order to develop proper multimodal regional development and regional transport plans that align with the modal shift targets in 'Llwybr Newydd' and the national transport delivery plan.
So, that work is ongoing. There are a number of schemes that they’ve identified in the south-west. I’m pleased that the work is also progressing on a new Neath transport hub, which will create an integrated transport centre adjacent to Neath railway station, which means relocating the existing bus station because we know that integration between the two modes, and making it easy to do that, is a really important part of persuading people to use public transport. So, I’m looking forward to seeing the corporate join committee follow through on that analysis and come up with a pipeline of schemes that we’ll then look at funding as part of the next funding round.

Altaf Hussain AS: Minister, many communities across my region have become isolated as they have lost public transport links, none more than my home village of Pen-y-fai, which has no bus service to Bridgend or Porthcawl. Despite the efforts of the community council, our village remains without public transport links or any active travel routes. Private vehicles remain the only option for residents, and not everyone has that option, particularly our elderly population. Minister, what will your Government do to ensure that people living outside towns and cities have equal access to public transport?

Lee Waters AC: Well, I think Altaf Hussain perfectly sums up the consequences of the deregulation of the bus industry that we saw in the 1980s, where routes aren’t run based on social need but they are run based on where private companies can turn a profit, and that privatised model, I think, has shown itself to have failed, because what it promised to achieve, which is extra passenger choice, has not materialised, and Altaf Hussian sums up a very good example of where people are left without any choice at all. And I want people to have genuine choice. At the moment, in the village that he lives in, it sounds like unless you have a car, you really have no choice, and that clearly is not right. We don’t want to force people to make choices; we want to give people real choices and real alternatives.
I’ll be publishing in the coming weeks a paper on sustainable transport in rural areas, because we can look at plenty of international examples of areas much more sparsely populated than Wales where they have good public transport links. And that's a choice that governments can make; it's not inevitable that rural areas are entirely car dependent. There are a range of things that can be done, and that's what I hope the regional transport plans will allow us to do. Of course, that will depend upon future funding, and we do need to spend more money on public transport, which is one of the reasons why we instituted the roads review, which was so vociferously opposed by his benches. But we recognise that, if we want people to have more choice, we have to invest in those choices, and not just invest in the never-ending pipeline of road schemes, because that's where the car dependence that he describes will simply continue.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Minister, I organised a three-hour public meeting recently, with TfW and Network Rail, attended by over 60 people from across Ogmore and the area, who raised their concerns politely but robustly—because that's the way we are—about the service along the Maesteg-Cardiff line and our hopes for improvement. We've subsequently had the welcome phased introduction this week of new rolling stock, which is brilliant, but we continue to have punctuality problems and cancellations, so we are looking forward to TfW and Network Rail coming back for another meeting shortly. However, the long-running demand for a half-hourly service, which I've championed since before I came to the Senedd, was also raised. Minister, you and your predecessors have met with me and councilleader Huw David before on this. To their credit, and as a result of those meetings, proposals have been worked up, I know, by TfW and Network Rail, for a half-hourly service. But the stumbling block is always funding, linked to the digitalisation of the signalling at Tondu, so we can get rid of the Victorian signal box and the physical handing-over of a key, and other Tondu improvements. And that funding needs to come from Network Rail UK. So, Minister, how can you help us in taking forward those discussions at a UK level, as well as Welsh Government and local authority, so we can have the decades overdue investment in this, which will then enable us to take forward a half-hourly service?

Lee Waters AC: Thank you for the question. He is right—he has been a persistent advocate of the importance of the scheme, and I've been able to meet him a couple of times to discuss it. I think the fundamental problem here, and we've seen this in other parts of Wales, is that we are part of an investment area called the 'western region' within Network Rail. So, we, alongside London and Penzance, are all up together for the same pot of cash, and the economic analysis that the Department for Transport use to justify rail schemes—a sort of cost-benefit analysis—is always going to favour those schemes in the most densely populated areas. So, when a scheme to Maesteg is up against a scheme in the Thames valley, given the density of the population and the economy of those different areas, it is always going to come down the list, and that's what's happened time and time again.
Now, I notice that the UK Minister for Transport for England is publishing his new rail Bill, to set up the creation of a new Great British Railways, which is a guiding mind of its own at the UK level, which we agree is sensible. But, instead of the existing functions of the Secretary of State being handed over to that body, we want there to be reform. Ultimately, we want full devolution of rail powers and funding, as the McAllister-Williams commission recommended. But, as an interim measure, we want Wales to have what Scotland has, which is its own region within Network Rail, so that we can set the priorities for where investment goes. The Ebbw Vale line is an excellent example of a line that did not meet the DfT test in 2008 when it was built. We built it from devolved funding. Demand far outstripped expectations, and we've now been able to enhance that service further. Now, that wouldn't happen under the traditional Network Rail system, and I fear Maesteg has suffered a similar fate. So, we do need a separate Wales division within Network Rail, with funding and autonomy for Wales to make our own choices on where investment goes. And also then, of course, we need the extra funding for rail, which is a non-devolved area, because Wales has been under-served for decades.
In terms of the specific point he makes, I'd be very happy to convene a meeting with Network Rail and him and the leader of Bridgend council, Councillor Huw David, to make the case again for Network Rail to understand the circumstances of Maesteg and how important a half-hourly service would be.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I have agreed to a request from the Deputy Minister for questions 3 and 5 to be grouped. Question 3, therefore—Llyr Gruffydd.

Bus Routes in North Wales

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 3. Will the Minister make a statement on the provision of bus routes in north Wales? OQ60698

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: 5. Will the Minister provide an update on bus services in north Wales communities? OQ60701

Lee Waters AC: Llywydd, I understand you've given your permission for questions 3 and 5 to be grouped. We are working at pace to transform the quality of local buses to serve communities across Wales. In advance of the bus Bill, which we hope to introduce later this year, we continue to provide additional funding to local authorities and Transport for Wales to improve existing services across the region.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Well, thank you. As you consider that work of improving services, I will remind that it's been a year since the T19 bus service between Blaenau Ffestiniog and Llandudno was lost. Of course, it served communities across the Conwy valley, from Blaenau Ffestiniog to Dolwyddelan, Betws-y-coed, Llanrwst, and down the valley to the coast. Now, when that service was lost, local residents were told to use the train, which, of course, doesn't run anywhere near as often and which has been very unreliable recently because storms have washed the railroad away.
Now, we're in a position where elderly and vulnerable people are finding it difficult without the bus service to access services, such as going to Conwy or Llandudno to see their GP, or to hospital, or to access other services. And to mark a year since the loss of that service, three Plaid Cymru councillors—Councillor Elfed Wyn ap Elwyn from Blaenau Ffestiniog, Liz Roberts from the Betws-y-coed ward, and Nia Clwyd Owen from Llanrwst—walked the 30 miles of the route that the bus would have taken until a year ago. Now, the fact that that's happening a full 12 months after the loss of the service, for me, reflects what a great loss the loss of that route was.So, can I ask you, Deputy Minister, whether you will commit to working with the relevant local authorities and with possible providers to try and restore that service, because there is no doubt that it is greatly needed in the Conwy valley?

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. Well, I agree that the current bus network is not what we would like it to be. I think we've rehearsed many times in this Chamber the pressures facing the bus industry from reduced patronage and increased cost and shortage of drivers, as well as the fragmented commercialised service that I mentioned in relation to the question earlier. We have identified, as part of our agreement with Plaid Cymru, an extra £46 million on top of the existing subsidy of some £200 million this year for bus services to be supported. And that includes the TrawsCymru service, which does provide, for those communities it does serve, an excellent service, with modernised buses and lower fares and ticketing connectivity.
So, where the services are there, the services are good, but there are patches that are not served. And we want to work with the regional consortia, because providing socially necessary buses remains a legal responsibility of local authorities, and they have ability of their own to raise funds and to provide those services themselves. They have that power and they have that legal duty. So, we do need to work together with them to see what, together, we can do to provide for the people of the region. We have created what we're calling the 'regional bus scrums' to bring together local authorities, TfW and the Welsh Government to plan, ahead of franchising, where those ideal bus networks would go. Funding is a constraint, and, at the moment, because patronage is still low, these are not viable commercially and they can only run, in many cases, with public support, and we have a finite amount of support that we can give. But I will happily go back and check with the regional scrum for north Wales to understand what provision can be made for those villages, and I'd be happy to write to the Member with details.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you very much, Llywydd, and thank you to the Deputy Minister for the response that he has just given to Llyr. I'm going to follow the same kind of route, because, as Llyr said, the T19 has proven to be extremely important to the community of Blaenau Ffestiniog that I represent, and, indeed, to the Conwy valley and elsewhere. I read recently a report by Age Cymru that warned that elderly people in particular would suffer more loneliness and isolation as a result of the closure of bus routes, and that people wouldn't be able to access services. That's what we've seen in Blaenau Ffestiniog—older people not being able to travel to Llandudno. But as well as older people, we've seen young people not being able to get to school in Llanrwst and, therefore, having to use private cars, which, as the Deputy Minister will appreciate, is not beneficial for the environment.
I'm pleased to hear that the Deputy Minister has said that the Government will look to provide more funding for local authorities in order to get better bus provision, and that you have these scrums that you referred to a moment ago. But, as Llyr said, it's been a full 12 months and more since the T19 route closed. I'm given to understand that when that route, which was the X19, became the TrawsCymru T19, it was supposed to receive more funding; it didn't. I'm also given to understand that, a year and more ago, the Alpine company had offered to work with the local authorities and the Government in order to find a resolution, but there has been no collaboration. So, it's disappointing that 12 months have passed—

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Can we have a question, please?

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I will come to my question. Thank you, Llywydd. It is disappointing that nothing has happened. So, I want a commitment that you are not only willing to go to this scrum, that you mentioned, but also to work with local providers in order to find an alternative solution to the needs of Blaenau Ffestiniog and the Conwy valley.

Lee Waters AC: Well, indeed, I will remind the Member of what I said to his colleague. Providing socially necessary bus services is a legal responsibility of local authorities. So, rather than looking entirely to the Welsh Government to address the problems in his area, he needs to be looking as well to his own local authorities.
Now, all of us face the same financial pressures, and none of this is easy, and we are all facing the shortcomings of the privatised system. We have recently introduced the new T22 bus service, which links Blaenau Ffestiniog with Caernarfon, and new flexi services in the Dolgellau and Machynlleth areas, and those are widely welcomed. Transport for Wales, in its planning, has been looking at creating strong regional networks that improve journey times and link up to key interchanges.So, as I say, where the services are in place, the feedback from customers and passengers is very positive. But there are gaps, and often that is because the patronage in those areas was very low, and the subsidy required is simply one that we don't have at the moment, and these are conversations we've had with Plaid Cymru, as part of the budget agreement. You know very well the situation we are facing. We have finite funds, and we've agreed joint priorities for those funds, and we agreed to look at bus funding and, indeed, identified an additional £46 million. That doesn't go as far as we would all like it to go, and that's why, I think, we need to work with local authorities to see what other resources might be brought to bear to improve the network.
And as we move to franchising, we'll publish a plan in the next couple of weeks setting out the detailed next steps to take us to franchising. We hope we'll be able to have more comprehensive bus networks, but that, again, will always depend upon the funding. We do think franchising in itself is a more efficient system. So, more money will go to services, rather than to profit, but there's always going to be a constraint. And the best thing we can all do to improve bus services is encourage people to use the ones that exist, because that then creates the case for further investment.

Mark Isherwood AC: Well, questioning you here last month, I quoted Arriva Bus Wales, whose head of commercial north-west and Wales told me, quote:
'As we discussed in Wrexham, Arriva do not want to change services, but have to because of 20 mph...because of 20 mph, the buses are taking longer to operate across north Wales, so we’ve had to register changes that have seen route curtailment, frequency reduction and additional resource to cope with the new running times required.'
In response, you told me you were very keen to engage with them. They also told me that with the Bus Services Act 2017, creating bus franchising in England, Manchester had had to spend £75 million to £100 million to launch this there, and that Manchester had also had to introduce a council tax bus precept, and asked how the Welsh Government were going to fund bus franchising in Wales, when they don't have enough to fund the current network, where, quote, 'the people need to know'. So, what engagement have you had with Arriva Bus Wales since last month? And how are you going to fund the additional cost of bus franchising in Wales?

Lee Waters AC: Okay, so do I understand from the Member's question that he is not in favour of franchising, because, of course, that requires investment? We're not introducing the same system as Manchester is; we're introducing a different system, which will be based on regional franchising, and it will be done under a whole one-guided mind system, and TfW and the regional consortia will have a key role in designing that.
Now, I did speak to the teams at TfW, who have been working with Arriva, to understand the exact nature of the conversations we've been having with them around the planning of the 20 mph roll out. I don't think it's fair or accurate for Arriva to blame the changes to the the timetable on 20 mph. Other companies have managed to plan that without achieving such adverse consequences. But there are areas where the routes are going down roads, which, arguably, could well be turned back to 30 mph. Now, we have local authorities in north Wales who have not used the discretion that they have under the current guidance to introduce exceptions, and I think that is a question for them to explain why that is. Rather than Arriva blaming the policy, I think it is the local implementation of it in those areas that could have been better planned with Arriva. This is part of the review that is ongoing that we published today an interim report from, and that is saying that you need to look at bus routes as part of an extended version of the new guidance, to remind the local authorities of the discretion that they do have.
I don't think the right answer is always to turn routes and roads and streets where people and traffic mix back to 30 mph when the heaviest vehicles can travel fast down them. That is not always the right answer. We can get better bus timetable throughput from bus priority measures, and that involves some difficult decisions, which I very much doubt the honourable Member—oh, where did that come from—would support. So, it's all very well huffing and puffing about the need to make change, but you also have to follow through the necessary things on the ground to allow that change to happen. Putting in bus priority measures is a key thing for making buses more reliable, which allows for more passengers and for more routes. I think there is a question about some of the detailed routes Arriva have and whether or not the guidance needs to be changed on some of those routes, but as I told him last time, other bus companies anticipated the changes coming in and changed their timetables in advance. And given the range of pressures on the bus service, to blame it all on 20 mph simply isn't correct and I think is disingenuous, and I would remind the Member that if it was not for the Welsh Government Arriva wouldn't be in business. So, I don't think it's a fair criticism. I think there's a lot more behind it. Some of their concern is fair, about the way the bus services haven't been designed around the exemptions, and that is something that the local authorities and us need to look at. Thank you.

Gareth Davies AS: Access to bus services is vital for people in the Vale of Clwyd in getting from A to B and supporting the local economy. Something that has severely hampered that in my constituency is the Welsh Government's default 20 mph policy, as Arriva Buses Wales—[Interruption.]. Arriva Buses Wales, I must repeat, have recently withdrawn stops on the X51 route, including at Tweedmill factory outlet, because it's taking too long, basically, from Rhyl to Denbigh and vice versa under 20 mph, as only 0.6 per cent—yes, again, I repeat, 0.6 per cent—of roads in the county have been exempt from this draconian policy. So, what assessment has the Minister made on the economic and logistical impact of the default 20 mph policy for people and businesses in my constituency, and what work and discussions are you undertaking with the relevant bodies to protect bus services for people in Denbighshire who have been badly let down by your ignorance on this matter?

Lee Waters AC: Well, Llywydd, I slipped earlier into a very odd bit of Westminster language—I don't know where that came from—so let me use a more deliberate bit of Westminster language to Gareth Davies: I refer the Member to the answer I gave a moment ago.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Questions now from the party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I'd just like to declare an interest in terms of my accommodation paid for by the Senedd Commission being one of the properties that has the fire cladding issue.
Now, it is nearly a year since major developers in Wales signed up to the legally binding pact that commits them to carry out fire safety works on medium and high-rise buildings across the country. Last November, Minister, you informed the Welsh Parliament that there were 34 buildings with remediation works under way and a further 34 buildings estimated to start this year. Residents are telling me that the contract has only led to just one building having been completed. So, it's no wonder then, is it, that the Welsh Cladiators are bemoaning the fact that you are still working out how to report the lack of progress on some 70 plus sites. Bearing in mind the quarterly monitoring process, please can you state how many remediation projects have been completed as a consequence of the developers' pact?

Julie James AC: Yes, certainly, Janet. Once again, I think you've got a little bit of a problem there with some of the statistics you're quoting. We have a route to remediation for every single building that has a fire problem in Wales—very, very different to across the border—and those routes to remediation do not require individual leaseholders or groups of leaseholders to institute legal proceedings in order to get their rights, because the Welsh Government has taken the view, always, that they should not have to do so, and we have stepped in on their behalf, quite rightly.
So, depending on the type of building that you are in occupation of, there are four types that we look at. So, in social housing, we're in the process of remediation there. Most of those are already done or in progress. For the large developer buildings, we have a large number of those currently in remediation. Some of them are still at the survey and intrusive survey stage, and we've had some difficulty, it's absolutely right, with some of the managing agents, in getting access to the properties, and I've had a number of meetings with those managing agents. I don't have to hand, but I'm happy to share with you, and if you're signed up to the monthly newsletter, you'll know anyway—I don't have to hand how many of those are in that. I don't want to just guess off the top of my head, but we have a number that are still in that process, but it's small numbers—it's certainly less than 10. Then we have two other routes to remediation. We have the orphan buildings, where, again, we've got buildings who don't have a major developer associated with them or were built more than 30 years ago, so it's not possible to take that remedy for the developers. The Welsh Government is paying in its entirety for those, and we're in the process of remediation for a number of those, and some of them are still going through the process of getting the occupier, the managing agents, and the freeholders to sign up to the intrusive surveys that are necessary to start the works, but a large number of those are also in remediation. And then there's the fourth category of buildings that were built by smaller developers. Not all of the smaller developers are small developers—they're names that you would recognise—but they perhaps have only done one building in Wales. And some of them are small and medium developers, who are vital suppliers of jobs and construction expertise in their local area, and we want to be very sure that we don't push them into administration as a result of wanting them to remediate the buildings, so we're negotiating with them a fair share of the amount of the money it will take to remediate, one building very often, and the Welsh Government will make up the difference through grant funding or recoverable loan funding, depending on the circumstances of the company.
So, I would say that we have a route to remediation for every single one of those buildings. It's not possible to snap my fingers and just put all of them into remediation immediately, because we simply don't have either the supply chains or the construction workforce to do so. But we can tell you, for each individual building, exactly where it is in that programme, and what's happening. If you sign up to the monthly news sheet, you'd know that, but I'm very happy to send you the details, or indeed, Llywydd, I'm happy to put those details into the library if all Members would like to see them.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you for that comprehensive answer. I noticed, yet again, the emphasis on the social housing, but many people who've gone out and bought properties weren't aware of this fire-cladding issue. Indeed, as I've referenced my own property where I stay here in Cardiff, it was only when the waking watch people actually started turning up on a regular basis that I asked, 'Why are you here?', and they said, 'This is one of the—'. So, we as tenants, or indeed people buying these apartments, just did not know that they had these issues, so I am very concerned. As it stands, residents remain trapped in these unsafe buildings.
Just under two years since the detail of the leaseholder support scheme was announced, I'm only aware of one leaseholder that has completed the sales process. Now, according to the leaseholders charity, the process took that leaseholder 18 long and weary months to sell her home to a Welsh housing association. Yes, there are a few others in the pipeline, but, as far as I'm concerned, this scheme does seem to be rather costly, and isn't bringing those results that it should. What steps are you taking to make the leaseholder support scheme more appealing to residents?

Julie James AC: That's a very good point, actually, because we started off with quite a restrictive set of criteria for that because, frankly, we had absolutely no idea how many people might want to take advantage of it. And, actually, every three to six months of that scheme, Janet, we've revised the criteria to expand it outwards. So, it's a much more expansive scheme than it was at the beginning, and we have written back to everyone who applied in the first tranche who didn't get through the original, very strict criteria to say, 'Please do try again because, actually, we've relaxed the criteria.' So, for example, when we started off, we were saying that people who had bought the flat as an investment property, perhaps with their retirement pot, couldn't access the scheme, but we've relaxed it and now they can. So, there are more people who are eligible. But I don't disagree that it was very restrictive at the first. We've also now started to look at whether we can just actually buy outright via RSLs the flats, not because the tenants are in individual hardship, which is what the scheme was originally intended for—and you will have had and I have had many heartbreaking letters off people who bought it as a starter home and now have children and can't sell and so on, so we wanted to help people out in those circumstances—but, actually, there's nothing to stop us just buying up the properties where an RSL requires accommodation in that area and is able to acquire them, and we've got an acquisition scheme for all social landlords across Wales, who can actually buy tenanted properties if that's appropriate and take them over, and that goes for flats as well as for houses right across Wales. So, that's also available.
I'm really pleased to say that the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors guidance is now available in Wales too, so it should make the process of commercial sale much, much easier. So, we hope to see it—. It's only been available for the last month and a half, so we really hope that in the next big spring market—. There's always a big push on the property market in the spring, so, we are hoping that the RICS—that's hard to say—guidance will make it much, much easier for people to sell up, because it will allow more lenders to lend on the houses, which is what's been the problem; we've had mortgage lenders who have been reluctant to lend on the properties. So, that should free it up, we really hope so, and I've had—. My officials have certainly had lots of meetings; I've had one meeting with lenders to just try and understand how to release the lending market, so we've got commercial sales as well. So, I do absolutely accept that it was harder to do at the beginning. We really have relaxed the scheme quite considerably. People can access that, again, through the same newsletter, and I really hope to see those sales accelerate now that we've relaxed the criteria.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you, Minister. Of course, concerns have been raised with me that not a single developer has made use of the £20 million Welsh building safety loan scheme. Does that concern you? And when you think that it's now over six years on from the Grenfell tragedy, it is reprehensible that some developers who can afford to remediate private buildings, they're not engaging as they should do. Now, of course, the UK Government have stated—Michael Gove, the Rt Hon Michael Gove MP has stated—that, where developers show shoddy practice on this, they will not be able to build again. Do you share those thoughts? Would you go that far, if you found developers just having cast their responsibilities aside and walked away, leaving apartment blocks full of very, very desperate residents? Will you take a tough stance and pursue legislative action to prohibit developers that have not completed building safety remediation work? And as Ripped Off By Redrow stated earlier this month, there is a shocking contrast between the fast pace of Redrow's new housing development and long-suffering customers who need remediation. Why is it that they can move very quickly when building new homes, yet they can't move just as quickly to fulfil their previous obligations and make these homes safe? Diolch.

Julie James AC: So, Janet, I completely understand the frustration of people who can see new homes going up by the same company who built the block that they're in that's got the problems, but obviously the sets of skills and the remediation difficulties of an inhabited block of 11 storeys are completely different to building a new build; it's a completely different set of problems. I know people don't want to hear that, but it's just true.
So, I absolutely agree with you that any developer that didn't step up to the mark in signing up for the pact, signing the legally enforced contracts and then carrying out their obligations under that, should be prevented from doing that. Here in Wales, fortunately, every large builder who has a building or set of buildings in Wales has, in fact, signed both the pact and the legally binding contracts, and we're in that process. It is frustratingly slow to get the intrusive surveys done; we've had all kinds of issues with it. We've been working with local authorities. For example, you often need road closure orders to get the scaffolding—you know, there are lots of other things that happen. We've been working with local authorities to make sure that, where those buildings are, we can get those works done.
I should say, Llywydd, as Janet Finch-Saunders has said she lives in an affected building whilst here in Cardiff in the week, so do I. And a lot of the buildings have that problem, so we continue to tell people to sign up to the newsletter, we continue to write out to the managing agents and through Rent Smart Wales, through the landlords, to make sure that we are getting to as many tenants as possible. And as I say every time, if you can all encourage anyone affected to sign up to the newsletter and be in touch with the team individually, they are very happy to have individual conversations with tenants; lots of people have taken advantage of that. And I've met very large numbers of groups of tenants. We have a tenants stakeholder meeting—I meet with them very often. I've met with the Cladiators group; I've met with individual building groups and so on. So, we are doing our level best to make sure that it goes as fast as possible.
But I will say that my paramount issue is that it's done properly this time, and that, this time, when it's remediated, those people can be absolutely certain that, this time, they live in a building that is properly remediated and they can go back to living their normal life.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Diolch yn fawr iawn. Despite the unprecedented pressure on the homelessness sector, with the latest data showing that 11,317 individuals are in temporary accommodation, wages in the homelessness and housing support sector have been driven down to unacceptable levels, and front-line workers are being pushed into poverty. Evidence shows us that 41 per cent of workers are paid below the new minimum wage, and two thirds are currently being paid below the new real living wage. This has left many struggling to make ends meet, with 56 per cent struggling to pay their bills, and 12 per cent feeling at greater risk of homelessness themselves. I'm sure the Minister appreciates that this underlines the scale of the problem, when the workers responding to homelessness are facing it themselves.
It's clear that the lack of an increase for the housing support grant in the draft budget will make this worse, and that support for workers is woefully inadequate as a consequence. In light of the evident struggles facing workers in the sector, does the Minister think it fair that care workers have been supported with a real living wage uplift, while front-line homelessness support workers are not?

Julie James AC: Yes, thank you, Mabon, for raising this really important issue. As I've said many, many times, if I absolutely could have raised the housing support grant, I would. We're actually still in some conversations internally to see whether anything can be done between draft and final budget, but, as you well know, we've had to prioritise a number of things. So, just to be really clear, we maintained the housing support grant at £166.8 million, which is the 2023-24 level. I know that leaving it cash flat is causing problems; I'm not trying in any way to escape from the fact that that causes those problems. But it was actually quite a struggle to keep it cash flat, given the scale of problem that we've got right across the Government. So, because we've protected that service, we've had to cut other services, which we'd all very much like not to have seen. I'm still looking to see whether we can do something. That is not a promise in any way, just to be clear, but we are still looking to see whether we can do it.
There are some other things we can do as well. So, we've put additional revenue funding of over £2 million into the homelessness support and prevention budget. We will be increasing the capital budgets to accelerate the social house building programme, because, of course, supply is at the root of much of this problem as well. And we will be working with the local authorities. So, obviously, people have to be paid the national minimum wage. So, we'll be working with local authorities to make sure that can happen. But I would very much like to see them paid the real living wage. We would very much like to have that happen. These are workers I was incredibly proud of during the pandemic, as everyone in Wales should be proud of them, because they accomplished the most extraordinary feat, to get everyone in and safe in a really short period of time. They're extraordinary people. They certainly do deserve to be paid the real living wage and be remunerated properly.
So, we are working with local authorities as consortia and as part of the overarching homelessness programme to make sure that we can do what we can. But, you know, given that the overall budget is £1.3 billion less in real terms, these have been horrible decisions to make. I'm not trying to excuse it in any way, but it was quite the struggle to keep it cash flat. If we can put that money up, then we absolutely will. And if, working with Plaid Cymru, we can find some way of doing that inside the co-operation agreement, I'd be more than happy to have those discussions.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you for the response. Yes, it's cash flat this year, but it's still tens of millions less than what it was 20 years or so ago. And might I remind you that the Government promised to pay them a fair wage. Yesterday, in his response to a question from Rhun ap Iorwerth, the First Minister denied that this was a promise that he had made. Yet in his own manifesto for the 2018 leadership, it stated clearly, and I quote, that he would:
'Take forward the Fair Work Commission and the steps we need to take to make Wales a fair work nation – payment of the real living wage in all companies receiving public funds as a first step',
which includes homelessness and housing support workers, surely.
The Labour Party's manifesto and programme for government both committed to paying the real living wage to care workers, but, during the pandemic that the Minister mentioned, homelessness and housing support workers were included in the definition of care workers for the purpose of vaccination priority group 2, access to personal protective equipment, statutory sick pay enhancement scheme and others. The Welsh Government was happy to use this definition when sending front-line homelessness and housing support workers into a pandemic. So, does the Minister accept that this was a promise made by the First Minister, and that the Government should honour the promises that they made and increase the housing support grant so that workers are paid at least the real living wage for the complex, difficult and life-saving work that they do?

Julie James AC: So, Mabon, as I've said to you already, I absolutely accept that these workers were fundamental to the pandemic response, and they are absolutely skilled front-line workers who deserve to be remunerated correctly. And as I also said, I've already met with the director of Cymorth Cymru; I met with her in January to discuss some of the points you raise and she highlighted the risks to the sector, which we're well aware of. So, we will be working with local authorities to see what can be done with the contracts, and there are three stages to this, because there are existing contracts that will need to be adjusted, and then there's the new procurement process. These are not directly-employed workers, for the most part. A few of them are—a very small minority of them are—but most of them are contracted workforce. So, it's a bit more complicated than paying a directly-employed workforce. That's not an excuse; I'm just stating it as a fact, really.
So, we will be working with the local authorities to see what we can do, because without these workers we will have a lot of—. The homelessness prevention programme is essential because we've still got 1,000 people a month across Wales presenting as homeless. Keeping people in their homes and, when we've rehoused them, making sure that they stay in those homes and have the skill and support necessary, is essential to the programme. So, I'm not arguing with you about it.
But the truth of the matter is finding the money to do it is really, really hard. So, I'm still in the process of trying to find some additional money. I cannot promise that at the moment, but we are looking very hard to see if we can find that, and I'm very happy to work with yourselves to see if that money could be found.

Bus Services in South-east Wales

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: 4. What is the Welsh Government doing to improve bus services in south-east Wales? OQ60710

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. We are working at pace to bring forward the new Wales bus Bill later in the year to transform the way services are delivered across Wales, and I'm working closely with local authorities to develop a new bus network plan for south-east Wales.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you for that response.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: My office recently found out that the direct bus link between Blackwood and the Grange Hospital has been axed after your Government funding came to an end. This is disappointing news, echoed across parties, not just for the people in the Blackwood area but also in Newbridge, Crumlin, Llanhilleth, Hafodyrynys, Pontypool and Griffithstown, as the bus stopped at these communities en route. Apart from being a big blow for the hospital's accessibility, this is also a big blow for our efforts to ease the climate crisis. The reality is that, for many people I represent in my region, a private car is the only viable option when it comes to getting to and from the Grange Hospital. For my constituents without a car, can they hope for better than two or more buses that they have to catch if they want to get to the Grange in the future? And can you also give an update on what any evaluation of pilot schemes in Newport or elsewhere in the south-east has had on your public transport plans?

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. Well, the example of the Grange is a really interesting one and a bit of a case study, I think, of what is wrong with our current system and what our new system needs to do differently. Now, the commercial sector decided that they didn't think there was demand to the Grange from the communities in Blackwood but also in Blaenau Gwent, and therefore didn't put any services on when the hospital opened. There is a service from the Grange to Cwmbran and to Newport, where there are connections available, but not direct bus services.
In order to use our powers of intervention, the first test has to be: has the commercial sector tried and failed? So, it had in this case. The second is: has the local authority under its legal duty to provide socially necessary routes tried and failed? And in this case,there was no appetite from the local authorities to intervene and provide their own support for a bus service, so we then looked to use our intervention powers, which can only be justified in narrow circumstances under the very complex legal framework that bus privatisation sets out. So, we did fund a six-month trial, which showed very low demand, as in fact the commercial operator said in the first place. About 10 passengers a day were dropped off at the Grange on the route from Blackwood. Now, it may be it needed more than six months in order to bed in and for people to know about it. It may be that, because there were no bus services as soon as the hospital was open, people got used to driving, and different patterns of behaviour were established. I guess we'll just not know. I think on reflection we should have tendered it for longer than six months, but finances are always very stretched.
I think the key thing now is to learn this lesson as we design the maps for franchising, and we identify routes to key public services as being socially necessary, and are included in the contracts that TfW award to the franchisee. So, I’ve asked TfW to look in particular at this case, this example, and to bear that in mind as they design their networks for when franchising comes in.

Natasha Asghar AS: I couldn't agree more with Peredur, that we do definitely need better public transport to the Grange, and it’s an issue that I’ve raised many times here within the Chamber.
Deputy Minister, the key to improving bus services is to encourage more people back onto them in the first place. Time and time again I’ve asked and called for the Welsh Government to introduce a cap fare, especially after seeing how successful it has been just across the border. In England, the number of bus journeys has increased by 19.3 per cent in the year ending March 2023, yet my calls have fallen on deaf ears with the Government insisting that there isn’t enough money. And apparently there isn’t enough money to make bus travel free for young people, which is something that I’ve supported, and will support, and believe would certainly bring a lot of benefits to the industry. So, Deputy Minister, I’ve listened to a lot of the answers you’ve provided to a lot of my colleagues here today, and I know you love to blame Margaret Thatcher for all the woes under the sun, but you have been in charge for 25 years here in Wales. There is no-one else you can give blame to but yourselves on this. So, if you are reluctant to spend money incentivising bus travel, just how exactly is the Welsh Government going to boost bus patronage?

Lee Waters AC: Well, we do exist within the legislative framework that is set in Westminster, so that is a fact, and we do exist within a funding system that is designed in Westminster—that also is a fact. And the way the Barnett formula is currently working and being interpreted by the Treasury and the Department for Transport means that we did not get a share of the money that was put into buses to get that £2 fare in England. I would love to have done the same, and I have rehearsed in this Chamber many times that we would, in fact, have wanted to reduce fares to a £1 flat fee, and had Cabinet agreement for that. Until Liz Truss blew up the economy, there was a sporting chance we could have done that, but there simply isn’t the money available now to do it as we face a £1.2 billion gap in our funding this financial year. So, these are the facts I have to work within, and I of course am desperately keen to increase modal share by public transport. That’s what’s in the targets I set in 'Llwybr Newydd', that’s what’s consistent with our climate change targets. We’re addressing some of that through the way we design the bus system, but we also need to have the funding to be able to do it.

Hefin David AC: In his response to Peredur Owen Griffiths, the Deputy Minister said that the average number of travellers on that bus to the Grange was 11 passengers a day. I've been told by Stagecoach it was actually 36 passengers a day, which, again, may not make it viable, but I still think we need to have a review of that pilot. My vision was that it would become part of an extended programme that would extend later on into my constituency, and also into routes that weren't currently covered, and it was disappointing that, partly, I suspect, the impact of inflation, but also the impact of the review of the service didn't allow it to continue.
I've also been contacted by constituents concerned about changes to transport to the University Hospital of Wales in Cardiff, and also issues in Aber valley, Bedwas, Trethomas and Machen, and from Bargoed as well. Therefore, on Friday 1 March, I'll be holding a bus users' surgery in Bedwas Workmen's Hall in Caerphilly. I'd like to feed back the information from that to the Minister. I'm also meeting this Friday with Stagecoach, in advance of that. What information can the Minister give me in advance of my meeting in Stagecoach, and my meeting with residents on 1 March, to give them reassurances that the current problems with the bus services are temporary, and that we are going to see change in the future?

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. I'd be happy to check the figures he quoted, because they're different to the ones that I've been provided with by Stagecoach. But the point is, whether it's 10 or 30, there were small numbers. Nonetheless, it's socially necessary and we want to support bus services that are socially necessary and, as I've mentioned, we need to have the system and the finance to allow us to do that. I think we're all in agreement across this Chamber on the importance of a good bus service.
I'd be very keen to get the feedback from Hefin David of the bus surgery that he is holding in his constituency, and I commend him for doing that. It's really important that we listen, not just to existing passengers, but those we want to encourage to use the buses, and that feedback will be very helpful for me to then pass on to TfW as they design the franchised system.
I think the message to give to constituents is that we need more people using buses, to make them more viable and to reduce the amount of subsidy that is needed, and we need to feed into the system that TfW are designing for franchising the key intelligence of where people want to be linked to. TfW will be using data from mobile telephones, so we know where people are currently travelling, and that is going to be a key data set used to design the networks, but that also needs to be based on citizen feedback too. So, I'm very keen to follow up with Hefin David to understand the feedback he has from his constituents.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Question 6 is next, Darren Millar.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you very much. I do apologise, Presiding Officer, but I am not ready.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Well, I'm very grateful for your honesty.

Darren Millar AC: I can read it now though, if that's okay?

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Yes, you've bought sufficient time now to read your question out.

Safety on the Trunk Road Network

Darren Millar AC: 6. What action is the Welsh Government taking to improve highway safety on the trunk road network? OQ60690

Lee Waters AC: Thank you very much, and I never thought I'd live to see the day where I'd see Darren Millar blush. [Laughter.]
Llywydd, we take the safety of the travelling public very seriously and have a targeted programme of improvements to address areas where there is a high density of personal injury collisions on the strategic road network.

Darren Millar AC: I'm grateful for your response. The A494 is a bane in some people's lives, particularly in the village of Llanferres in Denbighshire. It's a village where the speed limit along the A494 is 40 mph. And this is a village where there have been many near misses; many people feel that that speed limit is too high. The Welsh Government has made road safety a priority. You've been reducing speed limits on local roads, but we haven't seen many reductions in speed limits on the trunk road network. This is an area that needs a speed reduction to 30 mph, and I urge the Welsh Government to look into the appropriate speed in that village, and take action as soon as possible. Can you assure me that you will instruct your officials to do just that?

Lee Waters AC: Well, I completely agree that we should look at settlements in rural areas or along the trunk road network in exactly the same way as we do on the local road network, where, as you know, we have a default 20 mph when conditions are met. I'm not sure why he's advocating 30 mph in a built-up area, not 20 mph, which is outwith the rest of the system.
I issued a written statement to Members last night, setting out the interim results of the 20 mph monitoring, and also the interim results of the review that we'd asked to be carried out into how it's being implemented. One of the conclusions of that interim review is that a further review of speed limits, in the sorts of circumstances that Darren Millar has identified, should now take place, and I hope that'll be part of their final report. I think it should be the case that where we have villages, where there are schools, where there are shops, where there are houses, where there are community centres, the same guide criteria that we have for communities on local roads should also be looked at on trunk roads, so we can have safer, slower speed limits in areas where people and traffic mix.

Flooding in Flintshire

Jack Sargeant AC: 7. What support is the Welsh Government and its partners providing to protect communities in Flintshire from flooding? OQ60696

Julie James AC: Thank you for the question, Jack Sargeant. The Welsh Government works closely with our local authorities and Natural Resources Wales as the lead flood risk management authorities. We encourage the risk management authorities to put forward proposed schemes for funding under our flood and coastal erosion risk management programme, and I will be publishing next year's programme in March.

Jack Sargeant AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister, and for the response you gave me in written correspondence a few weeks ago on this issue, and I look forward to your statement on the flood and coastal erosion risk management programme.
I've raised this a number of times about the issues locally in Flintshire around flooding, and I think I've made my position pretty clear before, Minister, that the already identified work needs to take place in Flintshire as quickly as possible, as does any additional work to identify further measures to protect communities.Can I ask you, as you consider the programme of works, to ensure that the fact that areas like Mancot, Sandycroft and Broughton have been flooded more than once in recent years is factored in when drawing up this year's investment programme?

Julie James AC: Yes, thank you very much, Jack, for that. And I absolutely do know how devastating the impacts of flooding can be on homes and livelihoods, and on lives and on children. I've met many who've been really traumatised by it, so I want to offer once again my sympathies to anyone who's been affected by the recent flood events during this winter season. And I know that your constituents were particularly affected by storm Babet back in October, and my heartfelt sympathy to them.
We have been working with all the risk management authorities and I'm aware that Flintshire County Council have submitted a number of bids for funding in the following round. I'm afraid I'm not able to provide today any assurances on which schemes will receive funding at this time, but I'm very happy to confirm that recent flooding impacts are very much considered when we prioritise investment through the flood programme. And I will, Llywydd, be announcing the programme on 19 March.

Nuclear Energy

Ken Skates AC: 8. Will the Minister make a statement on the nuclear energy sector in Wales? OQ60707

Julie James AC: Thank you very much, Ken, for the question. Nuclear energy is entirely within the portfolio of the Minister for Economy, Llywydd, but I will do my best to answer the question anyway.
Apparently there are three recent publications that help shape nuclear policy and delivery to 2050 across the UK and Wales. Great British Nuclear will be key to project delivery at multiple sites, but its establishment impacts on Cwmni Egino’s future, as well as on the potential for projects at both Trawsfynydd and Wylfa.

Ken Skates AC: Many thanks for your answer, Minister. The nuclear sector across Wales is, of course, very strong and especially in the north where it forms part of the buoyant nuclear arc, and we have many investors in the region. And there's renewed talk, of course, of a possible new nuclear reactor at Wylfa. Can you assure us that the Welsh Government has assessed the needs of existing and potential investors in the sector as part of a clean-energy drive, so that we're able to deploy support that aligns with whatever might be available from local and UK Governments?

Julie James AC: Thank you very much for that, Ken. I understand from discussions with developers and members of the Wales nuclear forum in recent years that the key requirement for both existing and potential investors revolves around the need for suitable skilled people and premises. And in the nuclear sector in particular, investors also crave stability and consistency in Government policy to generate confidence and market resilience.
We're really pleased that Westinghouse’s decision to locate its UK decommissioning function at M-SParc on Ynys Môn, as well as the referenced Boccard investment on Deeside, arose from an assessment by both companies of the local availability of skilled personnel and suitable premises, the supportive Welsh Government environment and the potential future project opportunities in north Wales. I think this is a really good example, once again, of team Wales coming together to showcase the skills and the really good positioning, and a stable Government policy position around this, in contrast to that which we've seen across the border.
The Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee report on 'Nuclear energy and the Welsh economy' is published today and the recommendations contained there will be carefully considered as we look to see what future Cwmni Egino in particular might have, given the outcome of that report.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Finally, question 9, John Griffiths.

Urban Greening

John Griffiths AC: 9. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of its policies for the greening of urban areas? OQ60705

Julie James AC: I thank very much, John Griffiths, for that question. The Welsh Government has a range of initiatives to improve urban green spaces, such as Coetiroedd Bach and the allotment support grant. We recognise the importance of evaluating delivery. Local Places for Nature, for example, has commissioned a review to evaluate the social impacts of the programme between 2020 and 2025.

John Griffiths AC: Thank you for that, Minister. Most people in Wales live in urban areas and greening that urban environment—their doorstep environment—I think is very important to their quality of life, and also very important in terms of buying in support for the environmental policies of the Welsh Government and the efforts to tackle climate change and develop the sort of behavioural change we need to see.
In my constituency, Minister, we have Greening Maindeeas an organisation that has drawn on available funding to create those accessible green areas, turning areas that were neglected and were eyesores into amenities now for local people that are accessible and very much enjoyed. It really draws on that enthusiasm of our volunteers and their commitment and the time that they’re willing to give. So, would you agree with me, Minister, that we need to see more of this activity and progress in Wales, and will the Welsh Government and partners continue to provide the funding to make that possible?

Julie James AC: Thank you very much. I couldn't agree more—it's really lovely to see local communities getting really involved in greening their urban spaces. And indeed, in market towns across Wales, we also see semi- or peri-urban environments getting the same treatment.
Between 2023 and 2025, Newport will be receiving £61,000 under the allotment support grant and, I understand, intend to bring 14 derelict plots back into use at Cae Perllan Road and Market Garden. I really hope that that will mean that many more people get a chance to grow their own vegetables and flowers and so on. Also, it's really lovely to see derelict plots coming back into use. I was recently with Jayne Bryant in a slightly different part of Newport and we were looking at a scheme just along the riverside there, about which I'm very interested in seeing what can be done. The centre of Newport has some really lovely greening schemes in it as well. So, it's clearly something that's of great interest to the people of Newport, both east and west, which is lovely to see.
The Welsh Government continues to support the Green Flag awards as well. We give an accreditation to publicly accessible parks and open spaces to promote standards of good management and best practice. There are 280 awarded sites across Wales, including seven in Newport, of which two are newly awarded sites. Lliswerry pond and the Bishton village pond community area have also just received the Green Flag awards. So, I think, John, it's fair to say that Newport is a really excellent shining example of what can be done when communities really embrace their natural environment, and of both the mental health impact and the climate change and biodiversity impact of such a policy. I think the people of Newport are to be commended on their embracing of these schemes.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Thank you to the Minister and Deputy Minister.

2. Questions to the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The next item is questions to the Minister for Education and Welsh Language. Question 1 [OQ60709] is withdrawn.

Welsh-medium Childcare

Jayne Bryant AC: 2. What discussions is the Minister having with the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding the availability of Welsh-medium childcare provision? OQ60711

Jeremy Miles AC: I have regular discussions with the Minister for Health and Social Services and the designated member of Plaid Cymru about our commitment in our 'Cymraeg 2050' action plan to expand Welsh-medium nursery provision. We continue to work closely with our partners to increase the availability of Welsh-medium childcare provision.

Jayne Bryant AC: Diolch, Weinidog. Last autumn, you joined me in welcoming the opening of Wibli Wobli nursery, the first Welsh language day-care nursery in Newport. Tragically, the building that housed the nursery in Rogerstone burnt down last month. The nursery's founder, Natasha Baker, and her team, have been working incredibly hard since then, and this week opened a temporary location in Tredegar Park Primary School. I'm really confident that Wibli Wobliwill overcome this setback, but their experience has highlighted the lack of Welsh language childcare provision in my constituency.
Gweinidog, we all want to meet the 'Cymraeg 2050' milestone. The benefits of learning Welsh at a young age are widely recognised, especially for children whose parents do not speak the language at home. What more can the Welsh Government do to support Welsh language settings, particularly in English-speaking communities?

Jeremy Miles AC: The Member is right to say that I was very pleased to welcome the establishment of Wibli Wobli last year, as she says, and I was particularly saddened to hear of the devastating fire that occurred earlier this year. I'm pleased to hear what she has said today about the actions that the nursery have taken to re-establish, and I wish them all the very best in that very important work.
In relation to the Member's question, we continue to look closely with Mudiad Meithrin and local authorities to increase the availability of Welsh-medium childcare provision by investing both in the workforce and in building new settings across Wales. Since 2022, we've provided additional funding of around £3.7 million to our childcare partners, CWLWM, to provide additional and bespoke Welsh language training, including more training delivered in Welsh. It offers dedicated support to Welsh-medium settings, and to English-medium settings who want to increase their use of Welsh. This is in addition to the £70 million capital programme that we deployed to ensure that the childcare sector in Wales is strengthened and supported, and, to reflect the point the Member just made, with a particular emphasis on strengthening Welsh-medium provision in all communities in Wales.

Samuel Kurtz AS: The town of Pembroke in my constituency is not often considered to be a Welsh-speaking town, but there's a new Welsh-medium primary school being built in the area, and it will certainly help to provide Welsh-medium education, which is to be welcomed. However, may I ask what support the Welsh Government is providing to ensure that preschool children, who will ultimately attend Welsh-medium school, can experience the Welsh language even if they don't come from a Welsh-speaking family?

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Sam Kurtz for the question. The point that he makes is an important point. That's the exact purpose of the budget that we're providing to Mudiad Meithrin, but also to CWLWM, so that they can provide the necessary training to the workforce, so that we can ensure not only that settings can be opened up but that they can be staffed by people qualified to do that. Since the start of this year, about 15 per cent of childcare placements are defined as ones that are provided through the medium of Welsh, and about 11 per cent say that they use both languages in their settings. So, that is something to be celebrated. Furthermore, 21 per cent of the workforce in the sector say that they speak Welsh confidently, and about 20 per cent above that say that they can speak some Welsh. So, that picture is progressing as well.

Supporting Learners

Natasha Asghar AS: 3. What action is the Welsh Government taking to support learners in South Wales East? OQ60693

Jeremy Miles AC: We continue to provide support to learners in South Wales East, including £8 million of funding towards additional learning needs, £12.2 million-worth of funding through our universal free school meals programme, and £43 million-worth of funding for Welsh-medium education projects.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thanks so much for your answer, Minister. The consultation for the proposed school year changes closed just last week, and, I am sure similarly to many other Members in this Chamber, my inbox has been full of constituents raising their concerns around this matter. Firstly, the proposed changes will stagnate recruitment of our Welsh teachers, which is already behind where it should be, due to their loss of valuable holiday time prepping for a new term, which teachers across the border do not have to deal with. The changes will also increase costs for parents, as they will have to pay for extra indoor entertainment and heating, as their young ones will be home for longer, with increased holiday time over the colder months. This will most certainly have a knock-on effect, and we will also see a decrease in the vital benefits for outdoor education. Alongside this, Minister, our teachers will have to fight harder for much-needed annual leave, during a shorter summer leave period, whilst all the proposed changes deliver a disastrous blow to the economy and the rural sectors, with a £1 million loss that the Royal Welsh Agricultural Society will see from direct impact to the Royal Welsh Show, and the summer holidays underpinning our Welsh tourism industry. So, Minister, with these proposed school year changes clearly bound to negatively impact almost every area of society, will you do the right thing and drop the plans, going forward? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: I don't recognise the rather lurid picture that the Member paints of the planned reforms as described in the consultation. I speak to teachers all the time, who tell me that one of their main concerns is the length of the autumn term, which both staff and pupils find extremely challenging. Teachers tell me all the time as well that a moving Easter break makes it much harder to plan for their curriculum and do their lesson planning. So, there are a number of benefits to teachers from the proposals set out in the consultation document. As she will know, the motivation behind the consultation is around making sure that those learners who are least able to make sure their learning is maintained over the summer—[Interruption.]

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: John Griffiths.

John Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. One very important development for learners in south-east Wales, Minister, is the relocation of the Coleg Gwent Newport campus to the city centre. This will put learning in the faces of the wider community in Newport, and I think lead to very good progression routes—indeed, also through to higher education, with the University of South Wales Newport campus on the doorstep. I know you very much welcome and are supporting this important development, Minister. So, would you join me in wanting to see it going forward in as timely a manner as possible? I think we're all very eager to see the development and the opening of that very important new facility.

Jeremy Miles AC: I think it is an exciting proposal. As John Griffiths will know from our previous discussions about it, I'm very enthusiastic about it, and I very much hope that our officials, together with those of the college and the local authority, are able to make progress to realise the ambitions that the plan describes. I think it's really important from the point of view of the visibility of learning, as he says, but also in terms of the location of the project, which, I think, is itself symbolic.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Questions now from party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Laura Anne Jones.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Would the Minister agree with me and the first cross-party delegation that has just returned from the Falkland islands that a greater relationship between Wales and the Falklands—the gateway to Antarctica—could provide Welsh learners with a unique opportunity and could serve as a fantastic enabler for our learners in Wales to better understand what is happening to our environment globally?
As a Government that puts the environment highest on your list of priorities, would the Minister be willing to open talks with the Falkland islands Government and other stakeholders to develop, perhaps, an environmental project that would fit within our new curriculum, that connects schools in Stanley, their wildlife, and their proximity to Antarctica, to broaden our Welsh learners' horizons and to deepen their understanding of the world, with even the possibility of sharing the Welsh language given the high number of Welsh people that we met on the island? Diolch.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Laura Anne Jones for that interesting question. I know from my discussions with my colleague Alun Davies that the trip to the Falkland islands was very interesting, and the environmental opportunities, I think, were clear, as I understand it. I think what the Member says is actually very interesting. I think it is important for our young people to have a clear understanding of the natural world around them, the climate emergency, the nature emergency, and how we can contribute to tackling that. She will also know that this is a Government that promotes international connections between schools, not least, most recently, through our Taith programme, which has enabled many schools in Wales to build relationships with schools elsewhere. Some of those have been physical exchanges, many more of them have been remote, online exchanges, and I think it would be interesting to explore the possibility that the Member has raised today.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Thank you, Minister, I appreciate those comments. For over a year now, I've highlighted my concerns to you about the educational underachievement of white working-class boys in Wales. So, Minister, can you imagine my surprise when I heard your comments recently promising that a Welsh Government under your leadership would do more to help white working-class boys to thrive and achieve their full potential? Great. It's about time. White working-class boys are the most likely to not achieve a pass in English or maths GCSE, and they are least likely to go to university, with their numbers decreasing by 10 per cent over the last 10 years.
You now promise to close the educational gap for them in your manifesto promises, yet you have failed to do so in your time as education Minister. The lack of focus on this group of men, from you and the Welsh Labour Government, has resulted in very negative outcomes for them. We cannot and should not consign a generation of white working-class males to the dustbin of history. Minister, we see these new promises from you, yet you've been in charge of education for nearly four years. You've given no focus, no plan to address the disadvantage faced by working-class boys. Minister, why have you sat on your hands all of this time, and why has it taken a leadership campaign to address a now lost generation of working-class boys in Wales?

Jeremy Miles AC: I commend the Member for the diligence with which she's following my leadership campaign. If she showed as much diligence to what the Government has been doing in this policy area since I became Minister, I think that would be even more preferable.
She'll remember—and I'm sure will have read—the speech that I gave to the Bevan Foundation about two years ago, which set out a plan, which we have been pursuing since then. It has a number of facets. It talks about the importance of community-focused schools, about engaging parents in the learning of their children. I was able to visit a school in John Griffiths's constituency recently doing very well just in that way by teaching parents to cook and bringing them into the school and cementing those relationships with the school community.
She will know as well about the work that we're doing to provide a curriculum that excites all our learners and makes it possible for each of them to fulfil their potential. She'll know, I think, about the investment we've made in initial teacher education to make sure that teachers understand the strategies that are most likely to succeed, and the professional learning that we've commissioned to support them on their professional learning journey after that.
She'll know, I think, about the engagement that we've had with the Education Endowment Foundation, including, recently, forming a partnership with them so they will help us with particularly successful initiatives in schools. And I know that she will have followed closely the attainment champion programme, which we successfully piloted, paring schools that have demonstrated particular success in this area with those who have found it most challenging. I very much hope we'll be able to continue that pilot next year.
I know she's a particular fanof the Programme for International Student Assessment results, and she is very free to quote to them when they support her case, but she will, I know, from her detailed study of them, have realised that, actually, Wales has been showing a closing of that attainment gap. I don't claim any credit for that. It came in very much more quickly after I became Minister. But I do think having an eye on the evidence is important, as well as an eye on the politics.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Yet, numbers are still going down, Minister, aren't they, compared to the rest of the UK? And those white, working-class boys in Wales are still at a massive disadvantage compared to their peers.
Minister, once again, you have failed to address the failures of your tenure in your response. This has become a theme of our back-and-forths over the past few years, it seems. Since you became education Minister in 2021, you've cut education budgets to the bone, year on year—cash-terms reductions, this year, to the tune of £56 million. You have failed to address the teacher recruitment and retention crisis in Wales. There's been a stark rise in bad behaviour and violence in our Welsh classrooms, with over 5,000 incidents in the past five years, and rising. Absenteeism—still rising. School transport—still not adequate. There is no national plan to address mental health in our schools or to share best practice. Education standards are at an all-time low, with Wales at the bottom of the PISA rankings, far behind our UK counterparts, with Wales falling to its lowest ever levels in maths, reading and science, below the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development average, even, whilst England scores still outperform Wales's all-time best since we joined in 2006. And I could go on, but, quite simply, Minister, you have failed a generation of learners throughout Wales, especially those with additional learning needs. Schools have been crying out for more money for years for staff, for training, for resources. It's not really a record to be proud of, is it? Education is clearly not a priority for you, Minister, or this Welsh Labour Government. Minister, on this record alone, do you really think you're fit to be Wales's next First Minister?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I thank the Member for the breadth of her questions. She touched almost every aspect of education policy. Sadly, much of it was not based remotely in fact. I wish that she would pay more attention to the actual outturn of our education system and the incredible hard work that our teachers and school leaders do every day, against very challenging circumstances, very often, to make sure that they give every young person in Wales the very best start in life. And I'd call on her to provide more support for them in the fantastic work that they do.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Llywydd. Last week, UCAS published its latest data, which show a reduction in the number of applications from people in Wales for places at university. Wales also has the lowest application rate of any country in the UK. Not only that, the data also show a reduction in the number of applicants for places on courses where we desperately need more people with those skills, such as medicine and dentistry, where there is a 7 per cent reduction, and midwifery courses, where there is a reduction of 12 per cent, which equates to 400 applications, compared to 750 applications in 2021.What is your response to these data? And what are you doing to ensure that we attract more students on courses that are absolutely essential in terms of filling necessary jobs here in Wales?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, the Member asks a fair question. I had a meeting with UCAS yesterday, as it happens, to have this very discussion on what more we can do to ensure that access to higher education is equal for all. As the Member knows, we already have work in train to do that. The work that we are doing jointly with Plaid Cymru in terms of the Seren programme contributes towards that, but also the fact that we are providing the most generous financial support in any part of the UK in terms of the cost of living for students. We know that that makes the biggest difference when it comes to the decision of whether to go to university or not. But also, as the Member will also know, since last year, we have changed the regulations here in Wales to ensure that the status of a student's qualification for free school meals can be shared confidentially with a university in order to ensure that they have the full picture of the individual's attainment and that that is taken into account. So, there is already work in the pipeline, but she's right to say that we do need to tackle this issue. The picture is a little more complex than she describes. This is also a factor in other parts of the UK too.
In terms of the picture on the medical side, she will know that we have sustained the NHS bursary for this year once again. That makes a difference. The picture in terms of recruitment for nursing and some of the other functions that the Member has described today is, unfortunately, shared across the UK. So, we need to work jointly to ensure that we attract more people to this important work.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Minister. I'm sure you understand that I only have a minute to ask you a question, so trying to get all of the data in that minute is very difficult. But, one other element of the data also shows that the number of male applicants fell by 2 per cent, while the number of women applying to university fell by twice as much, by 4 per cent. We also know that there is a reduction as regards those with caring responsibilities, and we know that some universities don't have things such as a crèche to offer by now.
There are significant gender gaps across some key STEM subjects, where women are often already underrepresented, such as the veterinary sciences, mathematical sciences and biological and sports sciences. However, in the Welsh Government's latest draft budget, we have seen the funding that encourages students to study these subjects being cut, particularly in terms of postgraduate studies. Given the importance that you've attached to equality issues in bidding to become the next First Minister of Wales, how do you intend to rectify the discrepancies that have emerged in education, such as those that I've mentioned, without the necessary funding?

Jeremy Miles AC: Just to be clear on one thing, it's not a case of the funding being cut with the 'inclusion of postgraduate courses', but 'only for postgraduate courses', and the unfortunate reason for that is the pressure on our budgets. So, everything we know about when you spend in an individual's learning pathway, and the impact that you can have does point towards investing as early as possible—so, in the early years and school years. I had to make a choice, given the pressures on the Welsh budget, to make a cut there and to ensure that it is loans rather than grants that are available to postgraduate students so that we can safeguard access to initial degrees and ensure investment in our schools. No Minister wants to make that decision, but, certainly, within the range of decisions available to us, that is the most progressive way that we could invest the money available.

A Dental School in Bangor University

Sian Gwenllian AC: 4. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding establishing a dental school in Bangor University? OQ60677

Jeremy Miles AC: I discuss a range of issues with the health Minister, including dentistry. Health Education and Improvement Wales are responsible for developing a workforce plan for dentistry and will continue to assess the available training opportunities, including whether an additional dental school is necessary.

Sian Gwenllian AC: It's great to see the medical school at Bangor University going from strength to strength, with the first students to study the whole course in Bangor starting next September. The university is a crucial part of the economic and social make-up of the north-west of Wales, and there is no doubt that the establishment of a medical school does elevate the status of the university further. Speaking to the academic staff there, the establishment of a dental school is the next natural step on the journey to making Bangor a centre of excellence for health studies. Training dentists in the area would also help to improve the dental service available there and would attract more dentists to the area, and we've just been discussing how scarce dentists are in Wales. So, will you continue with those initial discussions on the establishment of a dental school at Bangor and work actively to make the case for that?

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Siân Gwenllian for that question. Bangor University does provide education in terms of dental care more broadly than dentists, and has done so very successfully, and, as she says, we're looking forward to seeing the first cohort of students starting on their journey in the medical school from September onwards. There are other exciting developments in north Wales, in terms of the dental academy under the auspices of the local health board. So, innovative developments are already happening in the region. I see benefits in having a dental school in Wales—a new one. I can't give any commitment in terms of the timing and location of that, but, certainly, that would be a positive development in due course.

Sam Rowlands AS: I'm grateful to Siân Gwenllian for raising this really important issue here this afternoon, because it is no exaggeration saying that there is a dentistry crisis in north Wales in particular. Indeed, just in Anglesey in recent weeks, a local practice there has told its 10,000 NHS dental patients that all routine check-ups are being stopped until further notice, which just gives an indication of the scale of the issue there. Minister, do you agree with me that training is a key way of finding a solution to this problem of dentistry at the moment? I certainly welcome the comments you made just now, indicating your support for a dental school somewhere up in north Wales, and, certainly, Bangor would make a lot of sense, with the existing work with the medical school there. So, I'd just like to know, Minister, what work you might be considering undertaking to ensure that quality teachers, facilities and investment would be attracted to a proposition like this, so that we can have this long-term strategy for dentistry in north Wales.

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I'm anxious not to stray into the portfolio responsibilities of the Minister for Heath and Social Services, but, clearly, the need to train more dentists and dental care professionals is something we are looking at very closely at the moment. We've already invested in Bangor University and the development of the all-Wales faculty of dental care professionals, and the first cohort of 12 students are now well into their second year of study, as Sam Rowlands will be aware. Just to be clear, I made no commitment, either, about the timing or the location of the dental school, I'm afraid to say, but I do think that a new dental school, at some point, would be a beneficial development. I would commend the work that is happening in the academy. I think that is a very exciting opportunity for training and for practise, as well.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you to Siân for raising this issue.

Jane Dodds AS: You won't be surprised to hear that I'm going to echo the calls of both Sam and Siân to look at how we can develop dentist training places in north Wales. One of the angles that I'd like us to think about is the Welsh language and that, actually, we need to be the leaders, particularly in north Wales, in moving forward how we train our experts, particularly our dentists, in the Welsh language. The potential of having training places at Bangor does offer that. We know that an analysis of the Welsh dental workforce in 2012 found that 58 per cent of Welsh dental graduates who did their foundational training in Wales entered the local workforce. So, we know that there is a direct correlation between where they train and where they stay. And, for us here in Wales, and in north Wales in particular where we have a high number of Welsh speakers, particularly older people who only speak Welsh, it feels important that we do move that agenda on as quickly as possible. So, I would just like to echo those calls but hear from you, as well, your thoughts about how we do encourage our courses to be working towards people speaking Welsh and delivering treatments in Welsh as well. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, being able to practise as a dentist or as a clinician of any sort through the medium of Welsh is really important from the point of view of the profession, but also, most importantly, from the point of view of the person receiving care, who is perfectly entitled to make whatever choice they wish in terms of the language in which they prefer to be cared for. We know that that is the reason behind the 'Mwy na geiriau' strategy that the health service has more broadly in this area. So, I absolutely recognise and agree with that. And the work that the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol does in order to make available options for people to study medicine and dentistry through the medium of Welsh is absolutely fantastic and a really positive development. I also agree with the point the Member made about making available more training and university places. We have, of course, done that both in medicine and in dentistry over recent years, very much with the point in mind that the Member makes that, by doing so, we hope very much to be able to retain people to practise here in Wales and, wherever possible, to do so, as she says, through the medium of Welsh.

VCSEs and Employers

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 5. How is the Welsh Government involving employers in the development of VCSEs? OQ60675

Jeremy Miles AC: Qualifications Wales consulted on their full offer proposals in spring 2023, and responses were received from a range of different organisations including employers, but also education professionals, parents and carers. I am publishing our consultation on 14-16 learning very soon and we have also engaged closely with employer groups in developing that.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you, Minister, for that answer. It is crucial that employers are intimately engaged in the development and implementation of these exciting new qualifications. Now, the development of the new VCSEs in Wales is a major step forward in putting technical, vocational and professional routes of learning at the same status as GCSEs, allowing students, under these new qualifications and the new curriculum, to really shape the right learning and career pathways for them, including, I have to say, mixing and matching from options in the VCSE and the GCSE pathways. Does he believe, as I do, that parity of esteem of the VCSEs and GCSEs is, indeed, a desirable aim in itself, as it will give learners the confidence to make the most of their own skills and their talents by choosing their own pathway, best suited to their own dreams and aspirations, and a tangible outcome of that will be seeing the achievements of learners in VCSEs and GCSEs given equal prominence and equal cause for celebration in the award ceremonies of schools and colleges up and down the land throughout Wales?

Jeremy Miles AC: I do agree entirely with what Huw Irranca-Davies has said. We speak a lot, don't we, about parity of esteem between vocational and academic qualifications? I think having sister brands, if you like, of GCSE and VCSEis part of how that can be communicated, that parity, that sense of them being, as they are, equivalent. So, I think that is really important, and I agree with him, I would hope to see people mixing and matching, as he says. With the newly expanded range of GCSEs in new areas that feel more applied, perhaps, than some of the traditional GCSEs, I think there's a really exciting opportunity for a learner to have a portfolio of qualifications that really does reflect their particular delight and, maybe, their future career path. Actually, employers were telling us that the plethora of vocational qualifications that VCSEs are designed to be a more streamlined version of is sometimes confusing to employers, just because of the breadth of them, as much as anything. So, having that more focused offer and that sense of clear parity is really, really important.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you for that response to Huw Irranca-Davies, Minister. I too am a great fan, actually, of the introduction of the VCSEs. I think that they're an opportunity to put that parity of esteem with academic qualifications. But, of course, the important thing is that many people will not just live and work in Wales once they leave a place of education—some of them will want to go on to study vocational qualifications further in England, Scotland or other parts of the UK, and, indeed, into the world of work in those places too. So, what work is the Welsh Government doing with employers to make sure that people across the United Kingdom are aware of the value of these new qualifications, once they're rolled out, and that they're not just something that Welsh employers recognise?

Jeremy Miles AC: The Member makes an important point, and it is important both when reforms happen in Wales and also when reforms happen in England, as with the T-levels most recently, that the particular nature of vocational qualifications, and GCSEs in this context as well, is recognised and portable, in that sense; it is very, very important. So, I know that, as the qualifications regulator, Qualifications Wales itself has very, very detailed and regular engagement with the other examination regulators across the UK to ensure that people understand, in all parts of the UK, the parity and the portability of the qualifications. But in the work of design and the work that we've done as a Government around the 14-16 offer more broadly, as well as engaging with employers, we've engaged with UK-wide employers' organisations, such as the Federation of Small Businesses or the Confederation of British Industry, who are able to make sure that there is a wider audience for the thinking, both in Wales, and, I think, also in England.

The National Eisteddfod

Heledd Fychan AS: 6. How is the Welsh Government working with the National Eisteddfod of Wales and Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council to ensure a legacy for the Welsh language in light of the Eisteddfod visiting the area this year? OQ60683

Jeremy Miles AC: We are working closely with the National Eisteddfod and the council as they prepare to hold the National Eisteddfod in Rhondda Cynon Taf this year. The Eisteddfod, of course, is much more than a festival; it is a three-year project that ensures a legacy that is linguistic, cultural and economic, which is vital. It is a privilege to be able to support a project that makes that a reality.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Minister. As you can imagine, I'm sure, there is huge excitement in the area that the Eisteddfod is coming, and I hope that everyone here will come to Pontypridd in August of this year. There hasn't been a National Eisteddfod in the area for decades, and many have never experienced an Eisteddfod, so it is a big ask in terms of convincing people of the importance of the Eisteddfod and the clear legacy that we are familiar with in other areas of Wales.
One of the main concerns is that it's happening atYnysangharad park, which is a wonderful park in the middle of the town of Pontypridd, but is also used by thousands of people on a daily basis, especially during the summer holidays. There are a number of negative things being said about the Eisteddfod at the moment because the park will be closed for, possibly, a number of weeks because of the visit of the Eisteddfod. Now, the WelshGovernment has worked with the Eisteddfod in previous years to ensure free access for local people or to have discounted ticketing. Are there any plans this year in order to ensure that that legacy, in an area that is crucial to the growth of the Welsh language, is delivered?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, there is high local enthusiasm for the festival. We know about the work that’s going on to ensure that local communities understand the offer of the Eisteddfod. So, there is a Maes B tour that is being held in schools in the coming months, and every year 6 and 7 pupil will have an opportunity to enjoy a show about the Eisteddfod free of charge, and there is a workshop to encourage 16 to 25-year-old women to take a greater interest in Welsh music. Local business awards are happening, and there’s work happening with Interlink to encourage volunteering. So, in many ways, the Eisteddfod is already having an influence and reaching out to the neighbouring communities, and that’s a very positive thing, and in doing that, ultimately, will ensure that vital legacy.
In terms of an affordable or a free Eisteddfod, as I think the Member mentioned, as she knows, the Welsh Government budget is under great pressure, and I have spoken already with the chief executive of the Eisteddfod about the Pontypridd site, and officials have asked the Eisteddfod about possible options for us to consider. I can’t commit to anything at the moment, but those discussions are already happening.

Early Years Education

John Griffiths AC: 7. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of its policies on early years education? OQ60704

Jeremy Miles AC: We regularly engage with early years education practitioners, childcare providers and our partners, including Estyn, local authorities, and umbrella organisations like Mudiad Meithrin, to best understand our successes and challenges in the early years, and remain responsive to the needs of the sector.

John Griffiths AC: Thanks for that, Minister. I think it’s clear from an abundance of evidence just how important the early years are, and I know that it’s one of the Welsh Government’s cross-cutting priorities, and I think nought to seven years is defined as those early years. And we know that within that, the first three years are particularly important, given the rapid neurological growth during those ages. It’s clear, isn’t it, Minister, as I say, with an abundance of evidence, that investing in the early years produces benefits throughout the life course. It really is an investment that brings those long-term lifelong benefits. Given that, could you give us a flavour of Welsh Government thinking and your thinking, Minister, in terms of how we build on the investment we’ve already made to really prioritise these years that are so absolutely crucial?

Jeremy Miles AC: I do agree with what John Griffiths says about the centrality of very early years provision in giving each of our young people the very best start in life. I think what’s important is a joined-up approach to early childhood play, to learning and to care, the kind of approach that we advocate as a Government, and I hope we’ll continue to advocate. That’s the best way, I think, of supporting the nurturing, the learning, the development of all nought to five-year-olds, actually, in Wales.
I’m very pleased that we’ve expanded Flying Start provision, and we are well on track to making sure that we provide access to another 9,500 two-year-olds. And I think that’s fantastic, and to be able to do that outside the geographic limitations that have been the case for obvious reasons to date, I do think is very, very positive. And this year and next year we’re investing £46 million in the expansion, and I think the offer that Flying Start provides of that additional package of support, we know is very well evidenced and very, very effective in supporting both young children and their parents.
On the other hand, we have a childcare offer that provides, as you will know, up to 30 hours of Government-funded early education and childcare. And I think the key is to strengthen now and build on the universal provision of early education and to make sure that we focus, I think initially at least, in expanding that offer to our two-year-olds, and then building up from that.

Education Budgets

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 8. What discussions has the Minister had with Conwy County Borough Council regarding the education cuts proposed by its cabinet? OQ60686

Jeremy Miles AC: It is vital that communication channels are active, especially during financially challenging times. I engage closely with local government on budget issues and meet leaders through the finance sub-group and other groups, as appropriate. I also visit schools to listen first-hand to the funding experiences of headteachers.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. As a result of this Welsh Government's very poor settlement to Conwy County Borough Council, they now sit in a £25 million hole and are planning to hike up council tax by as much, possibly, as 11 per cent. It was the highest at 9.9 per cent last year. Now, you'll be aware that a number of headteachers have written in asking for our support—how we can allow these education cuts to go ahead. Now, writing in—a story from one of my constituents stuck out to me, and it said that a 16-year-old girl tried to take her own life due to her terrible mental health. She explains that, if it were not for the pastoral service provided by the school, she wouldn't have been able to carry on much longer. I've spoken to a headteacher this morning and he said now that, with the extra curriculum, with all the other things that are coming forward, regulations and where you're putting burdens on their shoulders, they are simply running out of money at a fair rate. These cuts will jeopardise these vital services. What will you do to address with your own Cabinet these cuts and ensure that a better funding settlement comes forward to Conwy County Borough Council? Diolch.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Janet Finch-Saunders for the question. We've prioritised protecting core front-line public services, including schools, through protecting the indicative rise, which we indicated to local government, of 3.1 per cent overall. She will know that, in particular, in the case of Conwy and a small number of local authorities, the Government provided additional funding—in Conwy's case, of £1.3 million—to ensure that no authority will receive less than a 2 per cent increase, thereby introducing an effective floor this year, given the effect of the allocation and the formula that would otherwise have meant that that 2 per cent level had been breached.
The 2024-25 final settlement will be published on 27 February, and this will include additional funding recently announced, following the UK Government's announcement, which has led to a consequential allocation of around £25 million to Wales. This is being allocated to local government in full, with part of the funding being used to restore the social care workforce grant and the remainder being allocated to the revenue support grant as part of the settlement, which will then enable councils to support those pressures, both in social care and in education.
I will just remind her, though, that even in times when the Welsh Government has protected entirely local authority budgets, Conwy under the previous Conservative administration actually cut school budgets by over 3 per cent. And if she doesn't take my word for it, she can ask her colleague behind her, who was the leader at the time that that happened.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: And finally, question 9, Sioned Williams.

Support for Post-16 Learners with Learning Disabilities

Sioned Williams AS: 9. How is the Government supporting post-16 learners with learning disabilities in South Wales West? OQ60679

Jeremy Miles AC: The additional learning needs system supports learners from nought to 25 years with ALN in South Wales West. In next year’s draft budget, I have protected our significant investment in post-16 ALN provision with £19.8 million to further education colleges and £13.8 million for post-16 specialist placements.

Sioned Williams AS: Diolch, Weinidog. I wrote to you recently, as chair of the cross-party group on learning disability, and in the letter I raised a number of issues that the group felt needed to be addressed to ensure young people with a learning disability are not unfairly disadvantaged when trying to access post-16 education, which, of course, can have a significant impact on their mental health and well-being, as well as their education and career prospects. And in your response, as you did now, you stated that you've protected funding for post-16 ALN provision and specialist placements in the draft budget. Welsh Government has been responsible for making decisions regarding funding placements for young people who require that access to specialist provision, but this will change as a part of the ALN system, with responsibility and funding being transferred to local authorities. So, could you confirm when the Government will be publishing arrangements for how funding for learners who may require those placements at specialist colleges will be protected when the funding is fully devolved to local authorities, to ensure that all learners are able to access the additional learning provision they need in line with their less disabled peers? Diolch.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes, certainly. This is, of course, the first year in which the new ALN reforms will be introduced post 16, so it's the beginning of that process from this year. So, in a sense, it's early days in the implementation of the ALN regime in post-16, but the national implementation lead has been working closely with colleges—a post that is hosted within ColegauCymru—and I think, on the ground, what that has meant is that colleges have been able to adapt quite quickly to their new responsibilities and have been able to, where they've had to, restructure their arrangements, train staff and develop enhanced additional learning provision, and, importantly, to work on those transition processes, which will ensure the right level of support is in place for young people as they move from school to college.
She is right to say that there will be a transfer of the responsibility from the Welsh Government to councils in relation to the funding for supporting these young people. We will continue to secure and fund specialist post-16 placements for those young people who have not yet moved onto the ALN system, and we've put in place interim arrangements and guidance for local authorities to make decisions on placements for those moving to the ALN system from 2023 until 2024-25. The expectation is that full funding will be transferred to local authorities by the end of the 2024-25 school year, and we are currently discussing with local authorities how best to implement this, and, when those discussions have concluded, I will then be able to provide further information.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you, Minister.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Sam Rowlands, a point of order.

Sam Rowlands AS: Yes. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm sure the Minister inadvertently said something a moment ago that wasn't correct in referencing myself—the 3 per cent cut to schools in Conwy previously—as the council leader. That actually took place under the leadership of Gareth Jones, the former Plaid Cymru Member of this then Assembly. So, I'm sure the Minister would like to correct that.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you for putting that on the record, Sam. I'm sure the Minister will reflect very carefully upon that and may well come back to us on that, but it's on the record.

3. Topical Questions

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 3, topical questions. No topical questions were accepted.

4. 90-second Statements

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: So, we'll move on to item 4, 90-second statements, and the first is from Peter Fox.

Peter Fox AS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. This year, we commemorate the twenty-fifth anniversary of the incredible Tŷ Hafan Children's Hospice, who support critically ill children and their families across south and west Wales. Not only have they cared for 1,051 children since opening their doors, providing respite, therapy and advocacy, they now have 17 shops across Wales, with a total of 517 volunteers across their service. The work of Tŷ Hafan is needed now more than ever as the prevalence of children with life-limiting conditions in Wales has increased by 25 per cent in the last decade. Today, here in Wales, there are 3,655 children who suffer with a life-limiting condition, with the average age of referral to Tŷ Hafan being just one year old. From this, it's clear that the work of Tŷ Hafan will continue to be ever important in our society, and funding to facilitate it must continue. As Members of the Senedd, it's also our responsibility to ensure that we promote their work to reach children in our own communities.
To conclude, the magnitude of their work for children and families cannot be overstated, and I feel honoured to commemorate their twenty-fifth anniversary here in the Senedd today.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: We are very fortunate today to live in a society of acceptance and kindness. People of all backgrounds and abilities are now taking part in everyday society. However, whilst this change is positive, there is more we can do. Sadly, there still exists a stigma around those with disabilities and special educational needs. With over 63,000 children in our schools in Wales with special educational needs, it is vital that we continue to open up opportunities for them and encourage the respect they deserve.
This is why a constituent of mine, Sylvia Harper, and another constituent of mine, 15-year-old Holly Morgan, have created a series of books that aim to create awareness and specifically try to create a better understanding between children with special needs and those without. As Sylvia explains:
'Having noticed the bullying and teasing my two great-grandchildren have had to put up with over the last few years, I realised it was down to misunderstanding.'
The series of books covers topics such as deafness, blindness, autism and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. They are colourful, bright and vibrant and have a balance of text and pictures to aid understanding of these stories. I believe these books should have the potential to be in every nursery and school across Wales, and indeed this is their ambition. They need some help in achieving this, so I would ask Members in your own constituencies to maybe look at these books. I see potential here for a wonderful Welsh story—one of humble beginnings that will further cultivate our virtues of respect, recognition and responsibility. Diolch.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you both.

5. Debate on the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee Report, 'Inquiry into UK-EU governance'

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 5 this afternoon is the debate on the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee report, 'Inquiry into UK-EU governance'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Huw Irranca-Davies.

Motion NDM8488 Huw Irranca-Davies
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the report of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee titled 'Inquiry into UK-EU governance', which was laid in the Table Office on 27 November 2023.

Motion moved.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. The UK's relationship with the European Union remains of considerable importance to citizens in Wales, and continues to affect many aspects of our everyday lives.
Since the UK left the European Union four years ago, complex new structures have emerged under the withdrawal agreement and the trade and co-operation agreement, in terms of governing the relationship between the UK and the EU.
Responsibility for implementing large areas of these agreements rests with the Senedd and the Welsh Government, as they cut across significant areas of devolved policy or interest.
The development and implementation of new structures has involved continued negotiation, adaptation and adjustment, as both sides grapple with the enormity of the changes to our relationship. It is not surprising therefore that much of the focus has been on the content of the relationship between the UK and the EU, and agreements that govern it, rather than how it is managed and who has a say in the decisions that are taken.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Our inquiry sought to consider and address these quite fundamental issues of representation and engagement and decision making, and to suggest how improvements could be made. We are very grateful to all those who took time to contribute by providing evidence about their views and their experiences, including during a visit to Brussels in September last year.
We heard clearly from witnesses in the UK and in the EU that the signing of the Windsor framework, the pause in negotiations brought about by elections on both sides, and the upcoming implementation review of the trade and co-operation agreement, has created a rare opportunity to reflect on what Wales and the UK wants from its future relationship with the EU. We feel we should take advantage of this opportunity to consider how the relationship has worked to date and to take positive and constructive steps to improve its management in future.
Whilst agreeing with the spirit of our report, the Welsh Government has only accepted five of the 20 recommendations directed at it in full. That is somewhat disappointing given what we believe is an opportunity we now have in front of us, but I do remain hopeful that positive outcomes will arise from the recommendations we made. 
Witnesses told us that the role of devolved Governments in UK-EU decision making has diminished post Brexit. This is at odds with the significant power that rests with the governance structures of the agreements, which allow decisions to be taken that could constrain the use of devolved powers by Welsh Ministers and the Senedd. So, we concluded that there is a compelling and positive case for returning to a position where devolved Governments are properly consulted on areas within their responsibility. A better understanding of devolved issues at all levels will provide important practical intelligence, experience and evidence to the UK Government, including on potential barriersto implementation, as well as avoiding unnecessary costs and delays.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Each of the four Governments of the UK have their own expertise and experience that they can bring to the table. Indeed, prior to the UK's exit from the EU, it was common practice for the devolved Governments to be engaged in the development of a UK position on EU proposals. The value of this collective expertise should not be underestimated. Providing more meaningful engagement and input for the devolved Governments could generate ideas and solutions that would benefit the whole of the UK.
Calls for a greater role for devolved legislatures and Governments in the new structures have often led to claims that such an approach will somehow undermine the UK position, or that the difficulty of the decisions that need to be made require centralisation more and a single voice, but this misses the constructive case to be made for a diversity of voices on both sides. Differences in geographies, histories, economies and cultures mean that the nations and the regions and areas of the UK and the EU have developed their own knowledge and their own solutions. So, there is, therefore, strong evidence to support the need for an enhanced role for devolved Governments in the governance structures.
Inter-governmental relations and agreement on UK-EU relations may have declined post Brexit, but they could easily be improved, so our report sets out, therefore, a series of recommendations on how more voices could be included in the future, developing UK-EU relationship. Three actions could be taken immediately. Firstly, an urgent review by the Governments of the UK of the principles and terms upon which devolved Governments are engaged in UK-EU relations, and the adoption of a new memorandum of understanding on this very issue. Secondly, meetings of the Interministerial Group on UK-EU Relations should be called well in advance of key UK-EU meetings to enable proper consultation and engagement with the devolved Governments. And, in addition, devolved Governments should be provided with an opportunity to suggest agenda items to be discussed between the UK and the EU. We believe that's a mature approach to this working. And thirdly, the committee supports the Welsh Government's call for it to be given a fuller role in the governance structures of the trade and co-operation agreement, and to be given observer status at governance meetings under the withdrawal agreement when issues related to Wales, such as ports and other issues, are discussed.
The First Minister has accepted in principle our recommendations for the improvements to the inter-governmental structures, but he says he does not expect to see progress on them with the current UK Government. However, we remain convinced that there is still much to be gained from taking a positive, proactive approach to persuading others of the benefits such changes would bring. So, we hope the Welsh Government will be ambitious over the next 12 months in seeking the improvements we suggest, taking advantage of this rare opportunity we have now been presented with.
Stakeholders in Wales and in Brussels highlighted to us that they did not know what the Welsh Government's strategic priorities for UK-EU relations are, and that, during times of limited resource, it is even more important that they can do this to focus their own efforts to support the delivery of Welsh priorities. So, if Wales is to make the most of the opportunity that the next 12 months gives us, it is vital that a mechanism can be found to clearly articulate the strategic priorities of Welsh Government in a very open and a transparent way. There's a clear desire for them to do so from stakeholders we spoke to. This would enable all bodies and all organisations to work in partnership with Welsh Government to deliver positive, tangible outcomes for communities right across Wales.
We recommended that these priorities should be articulated clearly by the Welsh Government, either in a dedicated strategy or within a refreshed international strategy, and also that the Welsh Government should begin consulting civil society and stakeholders in Wales on these priorities and its vision immediately. And, by the way, this echoes, of course, similar calls made by the Senedd's culture committee as well.
Now, the First Minister has said a dedicated EU strategy is not needed, but a soft refresh of the international strategy before the end of this Senedd term will make the European dimension of the strategy more explicit. It is true, as the First Minister says, that not much is likely to happen in UK-EU relations in the next 12 months. We understand that. However, that's precisely why work to develop the priorities and to engage with stakeholders should take place right now, so Wales is in the very best possible position to set out its views when business returns to normal. We hope that the refresh of the international strategy therefore takes place sooner rather than later in this Senedd term.
I would like to touch on one other aspect of our report before drawing my opening remarks to a close. Evidence that the committee gathered in Wales and in Brussels shows the value of civil society advice and engagement in the management of the UK-EU relationship. It is businesses and organisations on the ground that feel the impact of practical barriers first and are often the ones that hold most of the solutions.
So, the Welsh Government and the Senedd would do a disservice to Wales if they do not better engage with these groups on this issue. At present, the Wales Council for Voluntary Action is the only voice specifically from Wales on the civil society group established under the trade and co-operation agreement. It is only able to attend due to grant funding that may end this very year, and this cannot be a sustainable situation for the long term. So, we recommended that the Welsh Government should re-constitute a European advisory group fit for the current circumstance to inform its European work, andshould call on the UK Government to provide funding to UK organisations participating in UK-EU civil society structures and, in the absence of such funding, should consider support itself.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Dirprwy Lywydd, I note that the First Minister says that he will not progress the issue of a new advisory group as a priority, as it will be for his successor to consider. We will certainly continue to advocate strongly for this group to be convened, and we look forward to raising these issues with his successor at the appropriate time.
We welcome the response from the Llywydd on behalf of the Senedd Commission, which states that Senedd Commission officials are happy to explore our recommendations on supporting further civil society engagement with the committee, other relevant committee Chairs and Members of the Senedd who have relevant roles. We hope that this can provide an opportunity to make sure that these important voices are heard. Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd.

James Evans AS: I'd like to thank the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for giving a very thorough overview of what our report says. It probably took a lot of what I had to say away, so I'm going to have to ad lib a little bit to get through it. I'd also like to thank all the committee staff who helped pull all this together, because without them, we wouldn't be able to do these pieces of work, and also the people we met during our evidence gathering, because speaking to those experts and people out there who know what they're talking about is always very good for people like me, who, shall we say, are not experts in the field of EU governance or negotiations.
But, as the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee outlined, our future relationship with the EU remains one of the most important international relationships we have. After we left the EU four years ago, the process to get where we are now has not been a very smooth one—it's been a bit bumpy and a bit up and down—but I think we're in lot more of a settled place. And, as a committee, it isn't our role to comment on what perhaps the negotiation should look like, but it is our role to look at tangible ways in which we can ensure that the voice of Wales is heard within the EU and also within the UK Government, and especially with the future review coming of the trade and co-operation agreement, we need to make sure that the Welsh Government and this Senedd have as much opportunity to feed into that as possible.
The governance arrangements are a key element in which we can ensure that Wales has a voice. We're told that the EU Commission and the UK Government could make unilateral decisions that could change the withdrawal agreement and the trade and co-operation agreement without any devolved parliamentary oversight. That isn't right, and that's what we need to make sure through what we've done through recommendations, which we hope the Government will take forward, that we can actually have a say in some of these negotiations to make sure that, with some of the areas in which the EU now and the UK Government have power over us here, we actually have more input into that to make sure that it's in the best interest of Wales.
That is why it's paramount for us to closely monitor the changes—which is in our report—to EU law that could impact businesses here in Wales and throughout the UK, because we need to make sure that none of our businesses here are detrimentally affected by changes to EU law. So, it's very important that we do play a key role out in Europe to make sure that nothing changes to our detriment here.
It was said throughout the inquiry, and by people we met, that more recent political changes in Westminster have allowed for a more settled period between the UK and the EU. When we were in Brussels, it was telling that everybody we met said that it hasn't been easy since we voted to leave, but there seems now a willingness and a focus from both sides—from the UK Government and the European Commission—to make this agreement work, in the best interests of both parties. As a committee, we all felt that the new stable relationship gives us an opportunity to relook at the governance structures, and how we can play a more active role within the current structures, which I know that the Chair, and my colleague Alun Davies, and other Members do have.
The committee made a number of recommendations to the Government, and I just want to focus on a few of them. Recommendation 3 sets out our position that we believe the Welsh Government should be given full status at the partnership council, and continue to be given observer status at all the relevant meetings. We think this is very important, because we want to make sure that the voice of the devolved Government here in Wales is heard—and that's not just us here in Wales, that's also the devolved administrations in Scotland, and also in Northern Ireland—to make sure that any decisions that are made, you have the opportunity to participate, to make sure that we're not forgotten about.
Recommendation 5 calls for a new memorandum of understanding for the Interministerial Group on UK-EU Relations, so that it's clear, I think, the level of engagement that the devolved administrations have, as the current model is very ad hoc. From what we're led to believe, sometimes Ministers are included, sometimes they're not included in things, and I don't think that's any appropriate way to be running an agreement or a trade agreement.
Recommendation 11 asks for the Welsh Government's direct participation in EU networks. I think that being in some of these networks is vital for Wales if we are to succeed as a nation as well, to make sure that we are information sharing between institutions. Alun Davies talked about something when he was in the Falkland Islands, of a living bridge—I'm sure he'll talk about that again—of how we do talk between institutions. It's very positive that the UK has rejoined the Horizon network as well, so we can share information there. And I would encourage policy makers elsewhere to look at other EU institutions we can join, because I think that is the best way to learn and to get expertise. We can't redo the wheel here, but if we can learn from somewhere else, that is also very important.
Recommendation 14 also talks about transparency, and the need for the Welsh Government to be more open with the Senedd about meetings they have when they talk about UK-EU relations. And I think it would help us here as a Senedd, and all the relevant committees, to be more informed about the work that the Welsh Government is doing and the future vision that the Welsh Government have for working within the European Union. I know that the two leadership candidates aren't here, but as the Chair said, it would be very interesting to know, when we do have a new First Minister here, what his vision is and what their vision is for the future relationship.
But as a number of recommendations also call, it's for Senedd Members to have an active engagement within the EU and its structures. As I've said before, we may have left the European Union—and I can see that I'm testing the Deputy Llywydd's patience here with the time—we may have left the European Union, but we haven't left Europe. And I think that, if the voice of Wales is to be heard, we need to be given as much opportunity to go out to Brussels, to go out to European countries, to actually put the case forward for Wales, to say how we can help shape some of the future policy within the EU. And I think that's something, perhaps not for the Government, but for the Commission here, to look at how we can actually actively do that.
And finally—I will conclude, Deputy Llywydd; this is my last point—this will probably be the last LJC committee report that I comment on, well, maybe, but we'll have to see. So, I just want to take this opportunity to thank all the clerks, the research team, and the legal team in the Senedd for all their help and support when I was a member of the committee. I look forward to hearing the Government's response, and all other Members who are going to respond to this report.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Just for confirmation, you can comment upon any report in the Chamber as a Member of the Senedd. Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: As the Chair did such an excellent job in giving us a comprehensive overview of the content of the report, I just want to focus on three or four of the 23 recommendations in the report.
Recommendation 2 called on the Welsh Government to note how they are monitoring policy and legislative developments in the European Union after we left the union. And it was slightly disappointing, I have to say, to read the Government's response, which said that, as the United Kingdom is no longer a member of the European Union, the Government doesn't monitor policy developments and legislative developments across the European Union as a matter of course. Now, it’s surprising for me because, as I always emphasised, and as many of us in this place always emphasised, this is the most important market for Wales. So, it’s still very significant indeed, if we want to access that market, to know what is happening in terms of regulation.
Some of us, those who were opposed to leaving the European Union, also pointed out the risk that environmental standards and standards in terms of consumer protection, and so on, would reduce when leaving the union. Well, one way of ensuring that that doesn’t happen—as much as we're able, given the limitations placed upon us—is to have an overview of what the European Union is doing, as it were.
And, of course, in section 11 of the Law Derived from the European Union (Wales) Act 2018 that we passed in this place, there was a clause that would have meant that Welsh Ministers would have the power to align regulations still devolved to Wales anew, having left. Unfortunately, we turned our backs on that legislation. In Scotland, they’ve retained it, and in section 1 of their Act, they have the power to continue to align regulations in Scotland with new regulations in the European Union. And, as a result of that, the committee that almost corresponds to our committee in the Scottish Parliament has created an EU law tracker that is co-ordinated by Queen’s University Belfast, which produces regular reports. The first has just been published in September and it sets out very clearly all of the new laws that have been passed by the European Union. Well, why don’t we just use that information? It shows that, last year—. The numbers that we’re talking about are relatively low. There were only two new directives that were passed last year in the European Union. So, it’s not too huge a number. There were a number of technical changes of course, but in terms of the major changes, they can be tracked. Why don’t we take our opportunities to build on the work that’s being done in Scotland?
Just very briefly, on recommendation 11, in relation to Wales participating in European networks in order to make up for what we have lost in terms of influence and so on, the Government of course notes in its response that the Welsh Government is a member of networks such as the Conference of Peripheral Maritime Regions and so forth, but there are important networks that we could be part of that we’re not part of at the moment. The main one for the regions or the stateless nations is the Assembly of European Regions. Why isn’t Wales a member of that? There are opportunities for this Senedd. The Conference of European Regional Legislative Assemblies represents regional parliaments and it’s considering inviting regions from outwith the European Union to be associate members of CALRE. So, there are opportunities for us. Why don’t we look into those possibilities?
And in agreeing with the comments made by my former fellow member of the committee, it’s important that Senedd Members are encouraged to go to Brussels. In the Llywydd’s response to the report, it was surprising and disappointing to read that only one Member of the Senedd has visited Brussels during this Parliament. We do have to support and encourage as many Members of the Senedd as possible, in different ways, to go there to ensure that Wales is still on the agenda.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to the Chair and members of the committee for the way in which they have described the report and its conclusions. I'd like, as others have done, to start my contribution by thanking the secretariat and the witnesses who helped us write and prepare and publish this report. As has just been said, this report, in many ways, goes to the heart of our governance and the way that we are governed in Wales today. There are a number of different threads and themes that I believe we have concluded and should be addressed by this Parliament as a whole.

Alun Davies AC: The first theme is the shift in power. We all remember the 'Take back control' sloganising of 2016. But the reality is that control has moved from parliamentary democracy to executive diktat, and that is not right. This Parliament has less oversight of the matters under consideration in the relationship between the EU and the UK than it had prior to the UK leaving the EU. That is not right. We have, instead, a complex web of new structures, and, of course, the more complex a structure, the less accountable it is, the more difficult it is to be transparent. And what that means is there is less opportunity for us, as Members, to provide parliamentary oversight of those structures and the decisions taken by members of those structures. So, we've seen the governance of our relationship of the EU, which used to take place in the open sunshine of democratic debate, moving to the shadows of civil service and Government Minister-to-Minister decision making. The democracy that we were promised has simply disappeared, and that is something that we need to address as a Parliament.
That lack of transparency is clear throughout the new arrangements. Our ability to understand which decisions are even being debated is limited, let alone then having an ability to influence and shape those decisions. As a part of the EU, as a full member of the EU, our people were in the meetings, not just in the corridors; they were in the meetings taking decisions. Today, we can barely find a pass to get into the building. Our ability to influence decisions that have a real extraterritorial impact on people in Wales today has not simply been diminished, it's been removed. And that's something that we need to address. But we've also seen a transfer of power. We've seen competence on a number of different issues move from here to Westminster, and that's not been done either by democratic debate or decision, it's been done by removing the rights of this place to legislate in a way that the people of Wales through referendum have sought and wished to see. That is something that has happened with minimal scrutiny, and that is something else we need to address.
Looking at the report and the potential for this place and the Welsh Government to take these matters forward, I think, first of all, one thing we should do is pay tribute to the work of Derek Vaughan. The appointment of Derek Vaughan as the representative of the Welsh Government in Brussels is something that has paid dividends many times over. Derek is well known in the institutions and the different parts of the European Union, and he is doing a superb job making sure that Wales is represented at the heart of Brussels. But we need to go further than this.
I very much agree with the points made by Adam Price in his contribution, and also the points made by James Evans in his, in the way that we need to look at how we shape decisions and understand decisions, and that means more investment. I'm looking forward to the Counsel General's response on behalf of the Government, but I did notice that the Government were far more anxious to accept recommendations where they had limited influence, rather than recommendations that would have involved action from the Welsh Government. I hope that we will see more action from the Welsh Government and more proactive action from the Welsh Government to ensure that we do invest in understanding the dynamics of decision making within the institutions of the EU.
But also, there are things that we need to do here. We need to look hard at interparliamentarianism. We need to look hard at how we work with other parliaments and parliamentarians, both within the United Kingdom and across the European Union. There are opportunities for us to create new forms of accountability, new forms of oversight, new forms of transparency, to ensure that the people we represent and their views are represented when decisions are taken. So, there are opportunities here for us as well.
I will finish on this point, Deputy Presiding Officer.The Commission of this Senedd has an absolute responsibility to ensure that Members are able to spend time working in Brussels and that committees visit Brussels, but we also need to ensure that we have an agenda for that work. The Chair of the committee, in introducing the report, outlined the time available to us, and we do have opportunities. With European elections taking place in June of this year, a UK general election taking place later in the year, and a potential change of UK Government, we have an opportunity now to change our approach and to change the way in which we engage with our European institutions. The TCA review next year is an opportunity for us to do so. It's an opportunity we can't afford to waste.

Delyth Jewell AC: I'd also like to express my thanks to the committee Chair and the members of the committee for this crucial work that they have done on this report.

Delyth Jewell AC: When I first came to the Senedd in 2019, Dirprwy Lywydd, the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee and I sat together, alongside other Members, on the external affairs committee, and we looked then at the post-Brexit world, which was filled with uncertainties and known unknowns, and five years later, we are each chairing committees that scrutinise the realities that we didn't know and could not have known then. First, we had the withdrawal agreement and then the trade and co-operation agreement. Both established over 30 new forums for the UK and EU to discuss their relationship, and neither provided for Wales to be represented.
Since 2021, the committee I Chair has made a number of observations that supplement and strengthen the LJC committee's findings. We agree that observer status for devolved representatives at the parliamentary partnership assembly is unsatisfactory, and we've echoed its call for their full participation. Our committee has supported the Welsh Government's requests to attend joint committee meetings where matters of significance to Wales are discussed, as has the LJC committee. The Welsh Government remains outside of these meetings, unable to represent Wales in key matters regarding the island of Ireland, including the Northern Ireland protocol and Windsor framework.
Dirprwy Lywydd, as the committee responsible for international relations, Wales's relationship with Ireland, our nearest international neighbour, is one that is very close to our hearts, particularly since our inquiry into the relationship between those two nations. We've also called for a dedicated EU strategy from the Welsh Government, and for the EU to be given 'priority relationship' status in its international strategy. Early on in the sixth Senedd, we raised concerns that challenges faced by stakeholders in engaging in EU-UK relations has led to reduced representation of Welsh interests, and that could further reduce in the future. For that reason, the Senedd Commission's response to the LJC's report to engage civil society organisations and its offer to work with committee chairs, I think, are both very welcome.
Earlier this month, our committee began our new inquiry on culture and the new relationship with the EU. The complexities of the trade and co-operation agreement in the post-Brexit world have already been laid bare to us, even at this early stage. A lot of the work that's been set out this afternoon, done by the LJC Committee, I think will enrich our understanding of the frameworks that are underpinning all of this.
In closing, I would just like to thank again the committee for this hugely significant piece of work, and once more to put on record our committee's support for what they are doing. I'm more convinced than ever of the need for a Welsh voice in UK-EU relations.

Rhys ab Owen AS: I'd also like to thank the committee for this important report, and the First Minister for his response. However, it appears that the committee and the Welsh Government have taken very different positions in dealing with the issues raised. Although the committee showed that there is a lack of sub-state representation on the international stage since Brexit, it does not appear that the Welsh Government wants to stir things up, because they assume that the next Westminster Government will have better inter-governmental relations. That may seem reasonable on one hand because the inter-governmental relationship between Cathays Park and Whitehall has reached a very low point in recent years. That is, of course, also true about the relationship with the EU as well. But you should not base a relationship on the parties in power. That's not the way to lay the foundations for a healthy inter-governmental relationship. Governments and people change over time. That's the nature of life and politics. We need to lay foundations that are sustainable in the long term, whoever is in power, that ensures that the voice of Wales, as part of the diverse range of voices, as Huw Irranca-Davies said, is heard.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Dirprwy Lywydd, if I may, I'd like to make two further points. Recommendation 21 says that the UK Government should ensure proper financial support for Welsh organisations to take part in the UK domestic advisory group and civil society forum. As Huw Irranca-Davies said, the voice of Welsh organisations is so important on a European level. Unfortunately, in his response, the Prif Weinidog stated that the UK Government has already confirmed that they are not willing to provide such funding. This, Dirprwy Lywydd, is a clear inequality of power, as it will mean that Welsh organisations are being cut out of important conversations, and this will impact our representation on the international level.
Secondly, I'd like to echo Alun Davies's comments with regard to Derek Vaughan's role as the Welsh Government representative to Europe. The Prif Weinidog recognised, in his response, that having a representative in Europe has been of great benefit to Wales. It has allowed Welsh Ministers to have that pass into the European Parliament. It has made possible meetings with the European Commission, and it has improved our visibility throughout the European Union. Clearly, this level of engagement was crucial during Brexit, but surely it is even more important now that we have left. After all, the European Union remains by far our biggest export partner. I see that the contract for this role is expiring at the end of the year, and there's no talk of it being extended. As James Evans said, we have not left Europe. My question is simply this: considering the democratic deficit that Alun Davies has passionately mentioned, considering that we no longer have Welsh Members of the European Parliament, and that the role of the representative is seemingly coming to an end, who will speak on Wales's behalf in the European Union? Diolch yn fawr.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution, Mick Antoniw.

Mick Antoniw AC: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm grateful to the committee for this important, thorough and detailed report, and to the Members who have contributed. I will respond to the various points in a moment.
Let me start by saying how pleased I am that the committee recognises the trade and co-operation agreement as the critical foundation for the vital economic relationship that Wales and the rest of the UK still has with the European Union. Although the agreement is a poor alternative to ensuring the economic benefits and efficiencies that we enjoyed as Members of the European Union, this is the only choice that we have, and we have to ensure that it works as well as possible. You will see from the Welsh Government response that we agree with much of what's contained within the report and its useful focus.

Mick Antoniw AC: Let me first address the wider context. The report highlights that the work on a new UK-EU relationship is not done. For our part, in Wales, we do need to continue to protect our economic, social and environmental standards, but also seek improvements to the status quo, where we can. We must do this in part through our own relationship with the UK Government. There has been continuous development of the trade and co-operation agreement since its agreement in difficult circumstances just over three years ago. UK Government relations with the EU have certainly improved with the agreement of the Windsor framework a year ago. I take this opportunity once again to welcome the restoration of a functioning Northern Ireland Executive. We trust that this can all be made to work without destabilising the trade and co-operation agreement or the Windsor framework.

Mick Antoniw AC: If I can turn to the report itself and draw out four Welsh Government relationships, firstly withthe Senedd, then with the UK Government and other devolved Governments, with civil society and stakeholders, and also with the EU. Firstly, the Welsh Government’s engagement with the Senedd. Well, of course, we are keen to work with the Senedd to maximise Wales’s interests in the evolving UK-EU relationship. And we are, indeed, sympathetic to providing the fullest and the most up-to-date information on the operation of the trade and co-operation agreement. However, at present, the UK system is just not efficient enough to allow that to happen. We also need to recognise meetings can include sensitive discussions for which full transparency is sometimes not always possible.
Our relationship with the UK Government and other devolved Governments is key to ensuring Wales’s interests are reflected in the trade and co-operation agreement. Let me be frank without being unduly critical of the UK Government: the negotiation of the trade and co-operation agreement and its initial implementation were rushed, and there was not sufficient time to develop good systems to support it. It was not clear at the time that the then UK Government were interested in engaging with devolved Governments to make the system work with devolution settlements. I am pleased that we are now in a more constructive phase, though improvements do need to continue to be made.
As regards my third theme, Welsh Government’s engagement with civil society and stakeholders, if I can just make clear that our commitment is to doing this as fully and seriously as possible, within all the constraints that we have. Sadly, the UK Government has not put stakeholder engagement at the heart of its approach to implementing the trade and co-operation agreement. We will push the UK Government to do more, and the report is an extremely useful tool for us to do so and a very helpful analysis. Overall, I am very pleased that there is effective Welsh input to the UK domestic advisory group.
Finally, looking at Wales’s relationship with the EU, it is culturally obvious and a matter of geographical fact that Wales remains a European nation. Combining that with our continued economic interdependency means that we must still seek to be closely aligned and diplomatically engaged with the EU and its constituent regional and national Governments.
If I can perhaps finish by reiterating what the First Minister has already said. We would be very pleased to see positive changes in the operation of the trade and co-operation agreement, and in the wider UK-EU relationship. But that is, to be totally honest, not realistically going to happen substantively until elections in both the EU and the UK over the coming year. These provide real opportunities on both sides for fresher engagement and a more positive spirit looking forward, and we will do all we can to facilitate and to support that.
If I can just comment on a few of the points that have been made, because this is an ongoing debate and there are many opportunities, and this report is a very helpful and important contribution to that. Just to say I very much welcome the point that was made that we should have full status at the Committee of the Regions partnership council. When I represented Wales on the Committee of the Regions, I very much pushed and pushed, when we knew we were leaving the EU, to ensure that that would happen. It was, however, blocked, by the UK Government. They did not want us to have that voice and we were prevented from doing so.
In terms of the other points, Alun made some very important points, I think, on the shift in power, and that's very clear from the report in some of the references that are made within the report. I noticed the comments of Dr Elin Royles, who was quoted in the report as saying that departure from the EU has reduced the Welsh Government's ability to influence the UK Government and the EU, and that is very, very clear. The subnational status that we had is one that is gone, but we need an alternative status in order to resurrect that particular role. It won't happen with the current Government.
Adam Price made some important points on monitoring. I'm quite familiar and I've had discussions with you about the situation with the monitoring that goes on in Scotland. Of course, there is monitoring that goes on in terms of the very specific portfolios within Welsh Government that are relevant and are observing and keeping an eye on what is happening within Europe, and the relevance there. But there have been—and I think everyone would recognise—over the past year or two, very, very many pressures in respect of monitoring what was happening even at UK Government level in terms of those aspects that were affecting Wales. And I know even from the Scottish side there is a tsunami of so much data and information on events occurring within the European Union, which is of course an ongoing process over many years, that the ability to actually extract from that what is relevant and how to utilise that information and then convert it into legislation or alternative steps is something that I know is being faced with considerable difficulty.
One point that was made that I think is, again, very, very important is the contacts with all the various groupings and so on that exist within the European Union, some of which we are members of, but of course those are things that we do want to maximise.
Can I just say on the response to the report from Welsh Government, a certain number of recommendations were accepted in full, but a lot of them were in principle, and I think the in-principle part of it is because so much of this is work that is in motion, and there have been so many other factors on a UK-EU level that have impacted? But this is work in progress, and on all the points that have been raised, I’m sure that there was very little disagreement in terms of that direction that we want to go in.
So, just in closing, I thank the Members who’ve taken an interest in the report and our response. The report is an important contribution. We do have to build and maintain an effective presence, an identity with the European Union, and we do have to move forward in that direction, hopefully with changes in an incoming Government. If that happens, there will be major opportunities in which to actually restore some of the status points that we raised. We’ll also have a more constructive engagement. Diolch yn fawr.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on Huw Irranca-Davies to reply to the debate.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I thank everybody who has contributed to what I think has been a very, very good debate this afternoon, and for the closing remarks of the Counsel General as well? What we’ve tried to do in this report—. And by the way, we’re not alone in bringing forward reports into this area; we’ve had committees in the UK Parliament and the Scottish Parliament that have produced work within this field, as have, indeed, the European Parliament, the Committee of the Regions, and the European Economic and Social Committee and other civil society organisations as well. This is a really hot topic, and I think we come back to the premise of our report, which is that we have a moment in time, probably in the year ahead, where we can look at the lessons that we have learnt over the last four years of, as the Counsel General described, a tsunami of information, and an overload, actually, of policy and so on that has happened, and changes, but now to reset and to say, ‘Well, how do we get the voice of Wales and of Scotland and of Northern Ireland really heard?’ And there is some element of working together as well.
I’ll just come to a couple of those points in a moment, but our report today is intended to say we’ve got an opportunity to advance this debate that we definitely need to have, and let me touch, then, in saying that, on some of these. First of all, James, my apologies in stealing some of your content in my opening remarks there, but, again, you highlighted the opportunity we have, as others did, now in the next 12 months, and the importance you stressed of engaging with EU institutions, but also, as Adam did, beyond the established EU institutions into that wider network of European bodies and organisations as well. I think there’s some creative thinking that we need to do about how we can make large the voice of Wales by thinking a bit more imaginatively. You talked as well, as did others—and there’s an important point here for the debate this afternoon—about the role of us as individual MSs, not only in just getting out to Brussels, but engaging in the myriad of networks that we have to make large the voice of Wales, and to make it heard as parliamentarians. And we shouldn’t be shy of doing that. We’re sometimes too shy and too worried about that outward engagement. This is a Parliament of the people of Wales. We need our voice to be heard internationally, including in our nearest and largest market as well. And can I just say you’re always welcome to contribute to any report or any debate that this committee does, and we appreciated your service on it as well.
Adam very importantly touched on the importance of horizon scanning, and I think the debate this afternoon has showed as well, including from Delyth as well, that the wealth of experience of insight that comes to this, including on our own committee. That is an important matter, and we did used to do that, actually. We had the horizon scanning. The Counsel General has responded by saying, 'Well, we face something of a tsunami', in his words, at the moment. Well, now is the time, actually, to look at who else within these islands is doing it well, and can we actually engage with them? And I think there is something there, Counsel General, about how we can work together with other devolved nations to see what is coming out of the EU institutions that either we can align with, or, alternatively, anticipate, and respond proactively to them. You echoed as well the calls about, 'Go to Brussels—go to Brussels.' Listen, clear as day, that comes out of our report. We've been very clear about this. The Scottish parliamentarians do it exceptionally well. They love-bomb the European Union and the institutions, and they do it for very good reason as well. So, it's a clarion call, I have to say.
Alun, I can't replicate the turn of phrase you have, but I noted a couple of them: the 'open sunshine of democratic debate', and this risk of moving from parliamentary scrutiny and so on to executive diktat. It's a great turn of phrase. [Interruption.] I'm out of time already. But transparency was—[Interruption.] Do I have time? Sorry, as I've run out of time—my apologies, James. Transparency was a key point for us, and we were told, Dirprwy Lywydd, that the new structures that have emerged currently have all the transparency of a black box: agendas are often skeletal and appear at varying times in advance. So, we do need to work on that. This is work in progress. I can't cover all the contributions, I'm afraid.
Delyth, I welcome your support for a fuller role at the PPA, a fuller role for Welsh Government on the TCA matters, echoing some of our reports from your role as committee Chair. And from Rhys ab Owen as well, the importance of civil society engaging, and Rhys as well making sure that it is resourced properly as well. And the Counsel General made that point. We need the UK Government to step up, but, if not, we need to find another way that they can properly engage. And many people spoke about a person you know well, Dirprwy Lywydd, Derek Vaughan, and talked about what the future holds in a post-Derek Vaughan EU situation. Well, we do need to think about that, and this committee has thought of it. Because it's not the individual per se, but the role, and what that does there, that networking and so on.
So, finally, Counsel General, we know this is work in progress, but we would simply say to you, let's not waste the 12 months ahead. Let's use some of the ideas that are being generated from the debate today, and from other committees and parliamentarians, and see if we can come up with the ideas that, when we come out of the EU parliamentary elections, a general election, somebody else sitting in the First Minister's seat, we are ready to make big that voice of Wales, because we've done the thinking already. Thank you to all my committee members. Thank you to an excellent committee team that we have behind us as well, and to all those witnesses again. And thank you for your patience, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: You just caught me on a good day. [Laughter.]

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board

The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Lesley Griffiths, and amendments 2 and 3 in the name of Heledd Fychan. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 6 today is the Welsh Conservatives debate on Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. And I call on Gareth Davies to move the motion.

Motion NDM8489 Darren Millar
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Recognises the work and dedication of hardworking staff at the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board.
2. Notes that:
a) 27 February 2024 marks one year since Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board was placed back into special measures;
b) the health board was previously subject to special measures between 8 June 2015 and 24 November 2020, less than 6 months prior to the 2021 Senedd elections; and
c) the health board has spent longer in special measures than any other NHS organisation in the history of the National Health Service.
3. Regrets that since being placed into special measures, patients and staff are yet to see the required improvements.
4. Calls on the Welsh Government to:
a) listen to the concerns of healthcare professionals when concerns are raised about the quality of services; and
b) ensure patients in North Wales get the timely, high-quality healthcare that they deserve.

Motion moved.

Gareth Davies AS: Diolch, Deputy Llywydd, and I'm pleased to be opening this debate today, although I regret the fact that we are compelled to do so.
Having worked for the NHS within Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board for 11 years, I am proud of the work undertaken during my time with the board, and I sincerely want the best for Betsi, principally for the sake of patients. I also want to thank the staff at Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board for their hard work and dedication in the face of mounting pressure, and I have heard as recently as this week constituents commending clinical staff at the Glan Clwyd Hospital. But I also frequently hear concerns raised about the management of the health board and its top-heavy management structure. I truly wish I was standing here this afternoon hailing the successes and improvement of the health board, but, unfortunately, a year on from the health board being placed back into special measures, the appropriate improvements have not been made. In fact, we are nowhere close to seeing the improvements that we should be seeing after a year in special measures. The culpability for this lies squarely with the Welsh Government. The chief executive's position was empty for nearly a year at Betsi, but we haven't seen the necessary leadership from the Welsh Government either. And please permit me to outline some of these failings.
The health board has spent longer in special measures than any other NHS organisation in the history of our health service, so, clearly, there needs to be a re-evaluation of the Welsh Government's solutions to the myriad of issues in the health board, because the current method has, as demonstrated, not worked. In 2019 the health board changed its model of care for vascular services, leading to Healthcare Inspectorate Wales declaring in 2022 that vascular services required significant improvement. Things have started to improve, but vascular services are still subpar, which senior coroner John Gittins referred to, said in so many words, following inquests into four deaths of vascular patients within the Betsi health board.
Betsi's performance regarding mental health and well-being is dreadful and it's anyone's guess how improvement is expected when the mental health budget has been slashed by 8.8 per cent. As of November 2023, just under 175,000 patients were waiting to start treatment at Betsi, thousands of these patients on a cancer pathway. That is the second worst in Wales. Recent data reveals that Wales as a whole is among the worst for cancer survival. Life expectancy in Wales has been declining since 2012, and these are truly harrowing statistics.
There are also ongoing issues with workplace recruitment and retention. Waiting times—as we know, a recurrent issue in Wales—are the poorest within Betsi Cadwaladr and data from December 2023 shows that just 83 per cent of patients were seen within the 12-hour waiting-time target, over 10 per cent behind the Cardiff and Vale University Health Board.
I could stand here ad infinitum naming the dire issues and failures in the health board and I'm sure we'll hear more from my colleagues later on in this debate. But what would we, in the Welsh Conservatives, do to remedy these issues? Firstly, we would spend the full Barnett uplift that the Welsh Government receives for health and actually spend it on health—something that the Welsh Government could achieve by dropping the poorly timed pet projects like the planned spending of £120 million on more politicians and the blanket 20 mph policy. We would spend this on doctors and nurses instead. We should listen to the concerns of healthcare professionals to ensure that patients in north Wales get the high-quality healthcare that they pay for and that they deserve, and are treated in a timely fashion.
We support calls for an independent inquiry into the running of the health service in north Wales and to enact a workforce plan that includes a tuition fee refund for healthcare workers to solve the recruitment and retention issues.
To close, Deputy Llywydd, the Welsh Government needs to start listening to patients and healthcare professionals regarding the quality of service in the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. You will hear how the health board is failing on most metrics. The figures—many of which I am sure you are familiar with—are enough to turn your hair white. The board has been in and out of special measures since 2015 and, on the anniversary of its most recent placement into special measures, there needs to be a recognition that a drastic change in thinking is required, and, most importantly, action.
I look forward to hearing the contributions from other Members in this debate. Thank you.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I have selected the three amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on the Minister for Health and Social Services to move formally amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Amendment 1—Lesley Griffiths
Delete all after 2(a) and replace with:
any decision to escalate or de-escalate an NHS organisation must be based on a proper consideration of an extensive range of factors and factual evidence;
Further notes that:
a) the recent Audit Wales follow-up review of Board effectiveness recognised improved board stability and concluded that the dysfunctionality within the board described in its previous report is no longer evident; and
b) performance for planned care has improved since February 2023, with a 1.5 percentage point improvement against the 26-week target, a 15.5 per cent reduction in the number of people waiting over 52 weeks for a first outpatient appointment and the lowest number of people with total waits over 104 weeks since August 2021.
Acknowledges that:
a) the Welsh Government recognises significant challenges remain; and
b) the Welsh Government continues to support the health board and hold it to account to ensure it listens to the concerns of healthcare professionals when concerns are raised about the quality of services and delivers the timely, high-quality healthcare that patients in North Wales deserve.

Amendment 1 moved.

Eluned Morgan AC: Formally.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on Llyr Gruffydd to move amendments 2 and 3, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan.

Amendment 2—Heledd Fychan
Add as new sub-point at the end of point 4:
publish a clear de-escalation process, explaining who will contribute to the de-escalation process and who would make the final decision, while also providing an explanation of the decision;

Amendment 3—Heledd Fychan
Add as new point at end of motion:
Welcomes the appointment of Dyfed Edwards as the new Chair of the Health Board and further calls on the Welsh Government to provide a clear timetable for the appointment of a full complement of executive directors and independent members.

Amendments 2 and 3 moved.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I want to start in exactly the same place as the motion itself, by recognising the work and commitment of all of the health board staff—not just those on the front line, but those who provide support services also—because I've said many times that they go beyond the extra mile and do so despite all of the problems and failings, particularly at a regulatory level, as we have seen in the past.
And it is difficult to believe that 12 months has passed since the board found itself back in special measures, and that for the second time, having spent almost five years in special measures up to 2020.
Now at that point, of course, there was a question as to what impact the special measures had. Because the situation took far too long to right itself, with the board still going from one crisis to the next, with the decision ultimately taken to take the board out of special measures just six months before an election, raising all sorts of concerns about the motivation in doing so.
But the question now is: what's different this time? Is the situation different? I've already placed on record that I do feel that the atmosphere has altered, and that, in and of itself, is a positive development. Much of that is down to the work of the new members of the senior management board, mainly the new chair, Dyfed Edwards, and the new chief executive, Carol Shillabeer. The follow-up report of the auditor general notes that the position is more stable and that the relationship between senior leaders is more positive, generally speaking, now as compared to the turnover in board members that was identified in that initial report early in 2023, and that that is thanks to the more positive environment that is now obvious within the board.
I have been witness to that myself. I've referred in the past to the public meeting I held in Betws-y-Coed with Llais in order to address the fact that the general practitioners there were giving up their surgery. The chair himself came to a public meeting with 200 local people, the chief executive was there and the head of the relevant department was there. That wouldn't have necessarily happened in the past, and there was that direct engagement, facing the public, and being transparent and accountable, and that was a breath of fresh air, in my view. So, the early signs are positive, but it will take time for that new culture to permeate down through the whole health board.
The Minister yesterday referred to some day-to-day improvements, that the number of patients waiting over three years for treatment has reduced and the number of people waiting over eight weeks for a diagnostic appointment has also reduced.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: And although we see these figures decreasing, of course, the fact that these data sets exist in the first place is probably unacceptable, isn't it, because they mean that patients are still waiting over three years for treatment and over eight weeks for a diagnostic appointment, and they are substantial waiting times that no person should have to endure.
Now, in order to see the necessary improvements in the performance of the health board, the auditor general emphasised the need for further appointments to ensure that the board is at full capacity as quickly as possible. It has been 12 months; we still see essential parts of the organisational structure not in place. The Minister told us yesterday, in fairness, that she was waiting for recommendations on the final four independent members, which will be announced very soon, I think. Maybe you could tell us what that means when you respond to the debate. That corresponds, of course, with the findings of the auditor general's report, but what I'd like to ask is: since the appointment of board members is so important to the effective running of the health board, it's frustrating, isn't it, and disappointing, I have to say, that it has taken over 12 months for those to happen, because, by not having those members appointed, then, obviously, fundamentally that journey of improvement has been held back to a greater degree than many of us would have wished.
All of us in Wales, of course, share the same goal of getting Betsi to a position where it can be removed from special measures, but that has to be done when it's ready for that to happen, and the Minister, in fairness, recognised that in the statement yesterday. I think you said that they will come out of special measures when they're ready to come out of special measures, not before. I'm not sure whether that's some sort of implicit suggestion that you accept maybe, that you've finally realised, that they were rather prematurely removed out of special measures last time. But, of course, that isn't a reason for anybody to sit back and take their foot off the accelerator either, so it's disappointing, I suppose, that it has taken a whole year to get the board fully appointed. I understand that there may be reasons for that, but surely 12 months is more than enough time to get that in order.
Similarly, yesterday, and I'll conclude with this, the Minister said that a series of sustainability conditions had been set on the board that needed to be reached before considering de-escalation; those would include strategic vision and culture change. But she also said that, in the coming months, she would supplement these conditions with de-escalation criteria. So, we're a year into special measures and critical criteria aren't in place. Now, I know you're probably waiting for the new board to be in place in order for them to have ownership of that, but, again, I think 12 months—a whole year—for us to be able to articulate what that looks like is unacceptable, and that point is captured, I hope, in the other amendment that we make. Diolch.

Sam Rowlands AS: I'm pleased to be able to take part in this really important debate today, because, as we've heard, it's almost a year since the health board for north Wales, Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, was placed in its latest version of special measures. It's important to remember that this is just the latest version of a fairly sorry tale. The latest version—the exact date—started on 27 February 2023, but we're looking, since the summer of 2015, at a similar situation formally way before that in terms of what Members of this place were raising with Ministers. And as Gareth Davies has already outlined, this is a health board that has spent longer in special measures than any other NHS organisation in the history of the national health service. As a proud Welshman, that really shames me, actually, that, in Wales, we have that sorry badge of having a health board that's spent the longest in special measures of any health board in the history of the NHS.
This latest chapter in this sorry tale is highlighted through the Audit Wales report again, which has some positives in it. It shows a level of progress in there that has to be acknowledged, but it still talks of fundamental challenges that the health board faces. There are references there, still, to substantive appointments, a cohesive and unified board and ongoing personnel issues. This does, for me, point to some significant issues, still, within the management structure, which haven't been fully fixed. Now, I know that the Minister will want to highlight where there is progress—and I do understand that, Minister—when you speak in a few moments' time, but I think that you should also seek to acknowledge that outcomes are still nowhere near where they should be. The one that strikes me most at the moment is our emergency department, where just 83 per cent of patients are being seen within a 12-hour waiting time target. That means that nearly 20 per cent of people are having to wait more than 12 hours in our emergency department. That's not a position that any of us wants to be in and our residents should not accept that, either.
Now, point 1 of our proposal today rightfully recognises the work and dedication of hardworking staff at the health board, and let's keep that on record, because it's very important that their hard work continues to be noticed. But, unfortunately, they are working in an environment that does hamstring them, and this, for me, is because of the structure that's been in place for far too long in the management of the health board. But also there has to be accountability by Welsh Government and by Ministers in Welsh Government. Now, I understand that, in the past, Ministers have pointed to responsibility lying at the health board level or by management in health boards, which is absolutely right; there is responsibility there. But, ultimately, for us as parliamentarians, accountability rests here in this place. As a delegated work of Wales, accountability lasts and rests here with Ministers in the Welsh Government. And it's the same Welsh Government that, as Llyr Gruffydd pointed out a moment ago, pulled Betsi out of special measures just before the last election and plunged them back into special measures pretty soon afterwards as well—clearly a mistake. And Gareth Davies has already pointed out what we would do as Conservatives, which is to properly fund it with the full amount of funding that Welsh Government gets from the UK Government, from taxpayers.
It's Labour's underfunding that is causing people to suffer in north Wales. Two years ago, the Welsh Government set a target that no-one should wait eight weeks or more for a diagnostic test, which is a wonderful target and it is very, very important, but, as of November last year, a staggering 40 per cent of waits were longer than the eight-week target—47,000 people waiting longer than the target that's in place. I think the point here is that I just don't think Welsh Government completely gets it—the experiences that my residents are feeling, day in, day out, in north Wales. I think another highlight of this that shows this issue is the recent leadership debate that took place in Mold between Mr Gething and Mr Miles, as they were drumming up support from the Labour faithful up in Mold. In that debate, there was not a single question about the NHS. From my understanding, actually, questions were filtered and not one question in that debate was about the NHS. So, when it comes to getting this issue and understanding what residents in north Wales are facing, to have not one question about the NHS, I think is something for the Labour Party to reflect on here in Wales.
With that summary in mind, Deputy Presiding Officer, I would encourage all Members to support the Welsh Conservatives, who would do the right thing for people in north Wales.

Jack Sargeant AC: I'm very grateful to have the opportunity to be able to speak in today's important debate. I'll start, Presiding Officer, by echoing the calls from colleagues across the Chamber to thank those who go in day in, day out, and go above and beyond day in, day out, to support residents in Alyn and Deeside and across north Wales.
Like many Members have already said this afternoon, health casework makes up a significant proportion of my own case load as Member of the Senedd for Alyn and Deeside, and the responsibility for delivering the services my residents rely on sits with Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. As I said in the Minister's statement yesterday, whilst most residents view health provision through the lens of whether they can get a GP appointment, how long they and their loved ones wait for treatment and access to things like dental care, many are also well aware of the health board's performance. The Minister, I'm sure, would not want me to say this in any other way or sugar coat this matter, but there is real frustration about the health board's past failings in Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, whether that's mental health services, whether that's access to GPs, whether that's waiting times or, as quoted in previous reports, Presiding Officer, the dysfunctionality of the health board. We all know, the Minister knows as well, it's not been good enough.All this and more is why the health board has gone in, out and then back into special measures, and it's clear that the problems were deep-rooted.
I very much welcome the auditor general's report that progress has been made, but when I do speak to residents and healthcare workers in north Wales, they are still clear that a lot more progress has to be made and has to be done consistently and quickly. We need a clear plan for that, we need a plan that we can hold the health board against, and that starts with getting the right people in post at board level so that they can, as the Minister said yesterday, and I quote, 'stabilise the ship'. I'm pleased the positions on the board are being filled. These things should have happened some time ago, but I do hope now that we have finally turned that corner.
Presiding Officer, more than 20,000 people work for the health board, and hundreds of thousands of people rely upon it. They mark progress against how they can access services, and we should not lose sight of this. What we're talking about here today is making sure that we drive improvement in access and outcomes. That's what my residents in Alyn and Deeside deserve and expect; it's what I expect as well. In response to the statement yesterday and my contribution to the response yesterday when I asked the Minister are my priorities and my residents' priorities the priorities of the Minister and the Welsh Government, I was particularly pleased to hear that they were. Diolch yn fawr.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Well, we know even more from yesterday that the beleaguered Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board still faces some huge issues. As my colleague Darren Millar pointed out, a new report, only out yesterday from the quality, safety and experience committee, outlined some enormous risks to patient safety: oxygen cylinders not connected correctly, resulting in no oxygen to patients; severe backlogs in urology, and patient pathways not being actioned due to dire staffing levels; and 1,133 letters identified during a search as being dictated by clinicians but having not yet been issued, the oldest of which was dated 13 June 2023. I dare say that some of those letters were intended for us, following constituent complaints that we've raised and not received any responses to. Most alarmingly, during the search of the office, 100 plus radiology reports, internal referrals and histology reports, around 300 collectively, have been identified as not having been reviewed or actioned. This is just simply not acceptable.
There is no denying that key public services have worsened over the past years under the leadership of the First Minister, Mark Drakeford, with waiting times in such disarray. Currently, there are four times as many Welsh residents waiting more than a year for treatment compared to those in England, and a staggering 40 per cent rise in the number of Welsh patients now seeking treatment in English hospitals. Confidence is at such a low level now as regards our health board. You can see why when patients in Wales are waiting, on average, six weeks longer to receive operations, yet I have got constituents who were waiting two years pre COVID, still waiting for operations now. This exemplifies to me just how slow the Welsh Government has been in reacting to the crisis in the Betsi health board.
Specifically, I'm reminded of the Bryn y Neuadd Hospital inLlanfairfechan, where, in February, I criticised the Welsh Government’s failure to discuss and deal with the backlog of £27.7 million of repairs, with 70 per cent of the occupied floor level being recorded as not functionally suitable. This is a hospital treating some of the most vulnerable in society, many with complex health needs. I myself have requested a visit there many times over the last 12 months, to no avail. So, I can go and visit any hospital any time, yet I’ve asked several times to visit Bryn y Neuadd.
Over the last few years, we’ve witnessed so many terrible and scandalous reports. Ten reviews have been carried out, all highlighting the significant problems we are hearing yet again this afternoon. It does beggar belief how much these reviews are costing the taxpayer, and I would be grateful, Minister, if you could confirm today how much taxpayers’ money has already been spent on the special measures over the last 12 months.
Despite all this investigation and inquiry, the Welsh Government seem no closer to understanding the wider issues at play. The most serious in my eyes is the Ernst & Young report. The investigation revealed that the finance team intentionally entered inaccurate information into the accounts, falsely attributing expenditures to a single financial year, instead of accurately reflecting their distribution over multiple years. I keep being asked by my constituents, Minister: what is happening about that? What is happening about the scandal around the £122 million?
This is still not a good time for the Betsi health board, but I reiterate that I’m grateful now for the work being done by Carol Shillabeer, the chief executive, Dyfed Edwards, and hopefully in time to come, a team, a good working team, with a good plan.
We are left with record waiting lists and the subsequent consequences for survival rates. Life expectancy in Wales has been declining since 2012, with Wales the third lowest in the UK. We made calls back in January for Llandudno minor injuries unit to receive some of the £2.7 million made available. I really sympathise with Darren Millar, Gareth Davies, Sam Rowlands, all our north Wales Members who raise the issues, with the promises of other minor injury units and emergency departments elsewhere. These smaller hospitals are really, really crucial in battling the pressures that are facing our health boards.
We, the Welsh Conservatives, are keen to address the underlying issues at play here. Urgent action is needed to finalise substantive appointments to the board to ensure its full capacity. We need a strong leadership. Governance issues have been ongoing in this board since 2012. We need compelling proof that the Government—and you as the Minister—have grasped the necessary lessons signalling a departure from the pattern of normalised dysfunctionality—

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: You need to conclude now, Janet, please.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: —and declining standards. Enough is enough. Wales, and my constituents, and constituents across north Wales, deserve better.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: As I mentioned yesterday, Betsi Cadwaladr is my own health board, and it has the daunting responsibility of looking after my loved ones—my wife, my children and my extended family—during their hours of need. So, I will forever be grateful to the miraculous midwives who brought my children into the world at Wrexham Maelor Hospital, and the nurses who gave tender care to Nain and Taid, my grandparents, during their last days, not to mention Dr Thomas and Dr Liddell, who are there for us as a family every time. So, when things do go wrong, it is not just the patients who suffer, but the excellent workforce suffers as well.
When the health board was created 15 years ago, it was clear that there would be initial problems as three health boards merged to create one. But even though 15 years have passed, those rifts continue to exist, and this is a core part of the board’s failure and the Government’s failure to recognise the weaknesses and address the weaknesses that were there from the outset.
First, I fear that the Government is not putting enough emphasis on health outcomes, with far too much emphasis being placed on short-term solutions, without enough attention being given to developing a long-term strategy. Secondly, it’s also clear that early intervention is very rare, which has normalised and allowed the failure of health services. Mental health provision is a perfect example of this.
And thirdly, the Government has failed to present us with a vision of how the health service should be delivered in the north. The Government hasn't even explained what success looks like in the context of the board. Consider this: it's more than a year now since the board was put back into special measures, and it is only now that the Minister is starting to think about creating a framework for de-escalation.
This is what the Minister said in her response to me yesterday:

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: 'I'm going to supplement those sustainability conditions with clear de-escalation conditions in the coming months'.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: In all seriousness, consider for a moment what this tells us. More than a year since the board was put back into special measures and only now is the Minister thinking of starting to set de-escalation conditions for the board. It's no wonder that the board is failing. It sometimes feels like it's being set up to fail. How is it possible for the board to proceed with urgency in tackling the problems if it does not have that clear framework with the necessary milestones in place to come out of special measures and build towards a more prosperous future?
Rather than trying to control or micromanage everything that the board does on a daily basis and hinder its ability to be innovative and flexible, the Minister should try to develop an understanding of the region's health and welfare needs and work together with the dynamic new board to create a long-term strategy with clear milestones along the journey to measure success and growth. Without this, I’m afraid that we will be stumbling on from one crisis to another, with staff losing confidence and patients continuing to suffer.
That brings us, finally, to consider the essential change in culture, and that being a change from the top, namely the Government. Rather than the attitude of learned helplessness that has seeped into all of this Government’s work, which, in turn, has corrupted the health board, we must change the attitude to one that aims for the best and shows confidence in our ability here to provide the best possible care in accordance with the needs in the region, and to do so in the unique environment of north Wales. Thank you.

Mark Isherwood AC: Well, let me start by thanking staff in the health board's audiology, speech and language and vascular screening departments for the excellent service they've given me personally over recent months. However, my personal experience with some of the departments has not been so good. I also note a Welsh Ambulance Services NHS Trust response regarding a constituent, which included that aninvestigation concluded that all the emergency ambulances on duty during the 999 call cycle were attending to other patients in the community or were delayed at Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board hospitals waiting to transfer patients from emergency ambulances to hospital staff.
Regrettably, Labour Ministers dismissed and derided our evidence-based warnings about this health board over very many years. On each occasion, they dodged responsibility by instead accusing us of talking down our Welsh NHS and staff, when we were instead speaking up because staff, patients and families had asked us to do so.
Commenting on last week's Audit Wales report, following up on the board effectiveness of Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, the auditor general stated that
'It’s assuring to see that the dysfunction within the health board’s senior leadership that we described last year is no longer present.'
Despite this, he subsequently told me that the report does, however, go on to say quite clearly that fundamental challenges still remain. These include the need to build an executive team with the capability and experience to tackle the significant operational challenges the health board still faces, and the need to further strengthen the way in which executives provide assurances to the board and its committees. He said that it was also important to stress that his report focused solely on board effectiveness and not the effectiveness of the wider organisation or, indeed, on specific service areas, such as mental health or urology.Audit Wales also emphasised that further action in a number of areas is still needed.
The core problems always lay within the executive. The letter I sent to the health board in March 2022, as Chair of the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee, included that we were disappointed by the lack of ownership and responsibility taken by the executive of the problems at the board. And, referring to various reports, including the Holden, Ockenden, HASCAS and Public Accounts Committee reports, we said that we were also concerned about the ongoing presence of executives and managers at the health board who were implicated in the conclusions of these reports and about their ability to deliver the internal change required. We never received a response to these concerns.
At the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee meeting on 3 May 2023, we also received evidence from John Gallanders and John Cunliffe following their forced resignation as independent non-executive members of Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board by the Minister on 27 February 2023. We heard that the forced resignation followed attempts by the independent members of the health board to hold the chief executive and senior management team to account through purposeful challenge and scrutiny after they were no longer prepared to tolerate the poor performance and unwillingness to be held to account of certain executive members of the board.
The central questions about this functionality within the health board therefore remain unanswered. Are those executive members referred to still in post or otherwise still able to influence governance and/or to manage staff teams? If 'yes', are they the same colleagues referred to in the statement I received on behalf of the former independent members of the health board following their forced resignation, which I shared with the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee, where it stated that some well-intentioned executives have been tarnished and undermined by the behaviours of their colleagues, such that the team itself became dysfunctional and ineffective as a group?If 'yes', are these the same executive members responsible for blocking accountability, burying reports and bullying whistleblowers over more than a decade?
Functionality, effectiveness and efficiency require transparency and accountability, and we need concrete facts about this accordingly. This is not just historic. Only last Thursday, I was written to regarding the situation in urology services. This included, 'It is no wonder that the relevant executive has put off the royal college review now for over 12 months'. They conducted a search of the office to find massive issues: that patients should have been having treatment, but the reports and letters not processed. The sacked independent members knew about the situation; look at minutes from 12 months ago, when they were being fobbed off by executives. That is the core of the problem. Diolch yn fawr.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on the Minister for Health and Social Services, Eluned Morgan.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm pleased to have the opportunity to respond to this debate this afternoon and to continue the discussion around Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board.
Yesterday, I set out some of the improvements that have been made over the last 12 months, and today I will highlight a number of service changes that will have a positive impact on the people of north Wales. But I do want to echo the comments made by other speakers around the commitment and dedication of the more than 20,000 staff who work in the health board. They are an integral part of the health board's improvement journey.
While it's correct that the health board has been in an escalated status for a number of years, I think that everyone in this Chamber would agree that my decision to escalate the board to special measures almost a year ago was the right decision. As I said yesterday, I have no intention of de-escalating the health board to level 4, which is 'targeted intervention', until I'm absolutely sure that the serious issues and drivers of poor performance, governance, leadership and culture are resolved.
As I reminded you yesterday, I set out a series of sustainability conditions last year, which will need to be met before any de-escalation can be considered. I think it's really important to note that over the past year, there's been a huge amount of work done. The key thing that we wanted to set out, against a very clear set of measurable targets, was the stabilisation of the board. So, it's not that we haven't had a framework to work from; we've had an incredibly closely monitored framework that we've been working to for the past year, and it's only now that that stability is in place that we can move on to the next one. So, I think it's really unfair to set out that there's a suggestion that it's only now we're getting to it; it's a very deliberate approach.
There are real signs, I think, that the health board is starting to change for the better. As people have referred to, the Audit Wales follow-up report on board effectiveness shows that the health board is moving in the right direction, with more stability and better working relationships. It's interesting to see that Llais, as well, an organisation that has always been ready to criticise the health board in the past, has also recognised that actually things have changed. I recognise that there is a long way to go before we can restore the confidence, though, of many people in north Wales in relation to their health service. But there are thousands and thousands and thousands of people every week who are getting an excellent service.

Eluned Morgan AC: Over the last year, there have been many changes within the health board, with support and advice provided by expert independent advisers. There has been a change in leadership and approach with a new chief executive. Yes, it took a while to get the permanent chief executive in post, but actually the interim chief executive was in post the next day when we announced special measures. There's the chair, the vice-chair, there are the new independent board members. They're all committed to improving ways of working, the handling of finances and improving the quality of care provided, and the experiences of patients and their families.
I know that many of you were keen to see changes to the executive team, and these are taking place. The director of corporate governance will start in April and recruitment to the posts of director of workforce and organisational development, chief operating officer and director of therapies will commence in the coming weeks. But there are other posts that have already been appointed and that are transforming the organisation. We collectively need to support the health board. We need to start talking about the good things that are being delivered to raise the morale of the staff in the service and the confidence of the public, whilst of course we need also to focus upon improvements in the area of concern.
There are plenty of new ways of working in place, including an expanded post-anaesthesia care unit at Wrexham Maelor Hospital for people who need specialised care after surgery. An eight-bed respiratory support unit has been opened in Ysbyty Glan Clwyd to support people with respiratory issues who need regular observations but don't need high-dependency care. It was amazing to see how that was working in a recent visit. Cutting-edge laser surgery is being used to remove kidney stones, and the orthopaedic team at Ysbyty Gwynedd has performed over 100 knee replacement surgeries using robotic technology. I was also pleased to learn that doctors in training have ranked Ysbyty Gwynedd's emergency department as the best place to train in the whole of the United Kingdom.
Wrexham Maelor Hospital is the first in Wales to use a new procedure, a cutting-edge laser, to remove bladder tumours or suspicious areas, and this is going to improve people's outcomes and experience. A new stroke rehabilitation centre has opened in Llandudno General Hospital to ensure patients have the best chance of a good recovery after having a stroke. A straight-to-test pilot approach has been introduced so patients have an mpMRI test sooner after being referred for diagnostics on suspicion of cancer. People can be seen more quickly, undergoing an MRI scan around 18 days after a GP referral.
The decision by Healthcare Inspectorate Wales to de-escalate vascular services from a service requiring significant improvement last June was encouraging, and I'm glad to hear that my colleague Mark has had a good service in that vascular department as well. The subsequent assurance assessment by the NHS executive also indicated that the service is making the required improvements, and I look forward to the outcome of a further case notes review, which is due to report in March.
Last year, waiting times for orthopaedics across Betsi Cadwaladr were considerable, with 2,472 patients waiting over 104 weeks. Waiting times for orthopaedic pathways have improved, with 1,100 patient pathways now waiting over 104 weeks. That is still a long way to go, but it's a 52 per cent improvement since they were put into special measures in February. Work has started on the new orthopaedic hub in Llandudno, and that's expected to be operating at full capacity early in 2025. The aim is to deliver 1,900 orthopaedic procedures per year.
The leadership and management of the mental health service, including children and adolescent services, remains fragile, but I would be very interested to hear where Gareth got this idea that the service has been cut by 8 per cent. We ring-fenced the mental health budget when it came to the budget, and my colleague Lynne Neagle made sure that that was not removed. Of course, we know there's more room to be done there, but there have been a number of positive HIW inspections over the last 12 months, suggesting a stabilisation of the service. Performance against the various measures—

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Will the Minister take an intervention?

Eluned Morgan AC: If you don't mind, I'll just finish the bit on mental health. Performance against the various measures for adult and child and adolescent mental health services has generally improved, although, of course, some challenges remain. I'm happy to take an intervention.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Diolch. While I accept that you say that funding for mental health is ring-fenced, do you not accept that the health board, and other health boards for that matter, actually spend significantly more on mental health services than what is ring-fenced? So, you could still have a state where the funding is cut from where it was last year, because the ring fence is only a base to go from.

Eluned Morgan AC: The ring fence was increased by £25 million despite our dire financial position, so I think it is probably worth noting that we are absolutely committed to this. It is one of the priorities that I always set for the health boards: that we are absolutely determined to make sure that mental health gets the same attention as physical health does. There's the fact that we have now the '111 press 2' service, which is transforming the way that people interact. I think it is important that we demedicalise our approach to mental health. I can't remember who talked earlier about the need to intervene early in relation to mental health, but that's precisely the approach that my colleague Lynne Neagle is really robustly pushing. You were here for the debate yesterday in relation to mental health; you'll know that that's precisely where we're heading.

Eluned Morgan AC: I know how much time people have had to wait for appointments, care and treatment over the past year, and I know that that's been frustrating. There are reasons for hope, however. We must always remember that thousands of people across north Wales receive healthcare, support and treatment of high quality every week. The thanks for that is to the commitment and expertise of staff at the health board.
For patients waiting for planned care, the numbers waiting 52 weeks for a first out-patient appointment has reduced by 15.4 per cent, and the number waiting 104 weeks for treatment has reduced by 24.9 per cent since February 2023. The number of patients waiting longer than eight weeks for a diagnostic test has reduced significantly, with 5,943 people waiting in November 2023, as compared to 10,000 in May 2023.
Emergency care continues to be challenging, and that's no surprise as we see how many people are coming in to our emergency departments. People are still waiting too long to be seen. The performance against the four-hour target is consistently lower than the level we would expect. Although there has been an improvement in reducing delays of four hours in transferring patients from ambulances, we still need significant improvement.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Minister, you need to conclude now.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you. There are so many things that have improved during the past 12 months. There's stability now in terms of the board, but what we need now is ongoing improvement. I do think that the change of culture that has come from the top of the organisation does mean that things are on the right track. There's a long way to go, but certainly, as a Government, we are keeping a close eye on that and we're there to help the health board. Ultimately, the health board must do this work itself. Thank you.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on Darren Millar to reply to the debate.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I think it's been a good debate that we've enjoyed this afternoon, talking about the challenges that the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board has, whilst recognising the very hard work of front-line NHS staff and the positive experiences of many patients. You're quite right, Minister; many patients do have positive experiences. I think the problem with the Betsi Cadwaladr health board is that it's inconsistent. It's inconsistent from one hospital to the next. It's inconsistent from one department to the next. And as a result of that, we've got a plethora of problems that the health board is still grappling with, almost 10 years since it was first put into special measures—nine years at least.
And we do have to hold you to account. I know that you like to pass the buck to the health board and blame them for things that go wrong, and then take the credit for the things that go right. That's the nature of the Welsh Government, I'm afraid. But the reality is that we need some more transparency. Our constituents are telling us their experiences, and they don't chime with the very positive impression that you're giving of improvement at the health board. Unfortunately, many people are still waiting over three years for treatment, and as I referenced yesterday, the health board only told us this week that they had finally eradicated six-year waits in the health board from referral to treatment. Now, how they can have been allowed to develop is beyond me, but if we don't see the information to be able to challenge you, and you don't see the information on six-year waits, five-year waits, four-year waits, then how on earth are we going to get to grips with the challenges in that health board? Because you've got to know what you're dealing with in order that you can focus attention and resources at dealing with them, and I'm afraid there's no transparency.
The health board, of course, told us, as I advised you yesterday, that 10 reviews had been completed, 10 reports had been received, 10 lots of recommendations had been made, and that they were working to implement them. Not one of those reviews has been published in the public domain, or shared with Members of this Senedd. We want to hold them to account for the implementation of those. I trust that they've been made available to the Welsh Government, and I think that you ought to get those published, frankly. Given that it's in special measures, you should direct the board to publish those reviews so that we can see them.
And we still have these terrible horror stories coming to light like the administration of oxygen problem that Janet Finch-Saunders referenced, and these urology letters and scans that had gone missing. We know that at least 62 of the 100 plus scans were abnormal. I don't know whether that's caused harm to patients as a result of delays in them getting access to treatment and care, but clearly that is a concern, and, to me, the fact that that's been allowed to develop for over a 12-month period, while the board has been in special measures, suggests to me that special measures are rubbish and they don't really work, and that you are not having the focus on the health board that there needs to be in order to make sure that its administrative functions are working.
What I can never understand is why the information from Members of the Senedd who come to the health board with complaints—. We know the parts of our postbag and the parts of the services in north Wales that we get complaints about, and I can tell you, we get no complaints, as Mark Isherwood has said, about the audiology services, because they're excellent, but we get lots of complaints about mental health services, we get lots of complaints about urology services, we get lots of complaints about the overly long waiting times that people have to endure in order to get their tests, their treatment and their access to the support that they need. I would have hoped that the healthcare inspectorate and indeed the Welsh Government would be asking us to help point you in the right direction so that you can investigate the concerns that are there, and that's why I cannot understand why it took so long for them to realise there was a problem in the urology department, because I've been writing to them, frankly, for years about that department.
In terms of mental health, we're still waiting for the review of reviews to be published. It was supposed to be completed by the end of last year; I still haven't seen it. March is soon approaching. You told us that you were going to do things at pace in order to improve the situation there. It certainly doesn't feel like things have been moving at pace, I'm afraid. We also know that a urology review was commissioned by the previous board members. Presumably, that's ended up somewhere—we haven't seen it. So, it seems to me that the only time we ever see a review is if it's got good news to tell us, not if it perhaps has got gory details to tell us, and we need to see both because we need to have the balance. That's why I'm saying we need a more transparent Government. We want to help you to do the job that you want to do and that we want you to do, which is to improve that health board. [Interruption.] I'll happily take the intervention.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks. Well, I know 10 reviews, as you say, have been commissioned. Four of them have actually been published, so it's up to you to go and have a look at those, because they are out there and they are published, and the others will be published once they have been reported, once the committee has decided. So, there's no lack of transparency here, but if they've been published, we're not going to hand them to you in your hands—you can go and look for them as well. They're all out there, they're ready. There is transparency.

Darren Millar AC: Yes, of course we should spend hours trawling the health board's website, searching for these reviews in order to find them, so that we can have a look at them. And I would say this: one of the previous criticisms, actually, of the health board, was that you couldn't find the wood for the trees in the board papers, right, so how you expect us to have the time to go searching and trawling the internet to try and find reports is beyond me. And let me tell you, I expect you as a Government to be publishing these things and to be drawing everybody's attention to them. That is what we expect from our Ministers. We want some transparent accountability. [Interruption.] We want some transparency and accountability.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Can Members please allow the speaker to speak?

Darren Millar AC: We want some transparency and accountability. Now, you've talked also about the challenges that the health board has in many areas. I've talked about urology, I've talked about mental health services. Another one, of course, is in the emergency department—some of the worst-performing emergency departments, I'm afraid to say, particularly at Glan Clwyd and Wrexham Maelor, in the whole of the United Kingdom. It's not something we should be proud of; we need to improve them. One of the solutions, 10 years ago, that this Government said it was going to implement in order to improve that situation was the development of a new minor injuries unit and a new community hospital in Rhyl. Where are we? We are still waiting. And you keep throwing the buck back to the health board, saying, 'We're waiting for the health board to do this.' Well, you should be chasing them. You should be hunting them down in order to bring forward a plan that you believe that you can invest in. If you promise the public a new minor injuries unit, to take pressure off the emergency department down the road, I'm afraid you should deliver. You should put your money where your mouth is and get on and deliver these things. We haven't seen that for 10 years.
And north Wales hasn't been getting its fair share of capital investment either, has it, Minister, not compared to other health boards across the country? We've been left far behind. Part of that is because nearly every plan that the executive team tried to bring forward, to improve the situation and improve performance, was swatted back under the previous escalation arrangements. So, that's why I do agree that there needs to be more freedom to innovate amongst the executive team and the health board, to address the challenges that they face, because it's local solutions that will deliver the improvements that we need to see.
So, I ask you, Minister, let's be more transparent, let's see the good and the bad. You read a long list of brilliant things that were happening at the health board, and I take my hat off to them. I want to celebrate those things too. But there's a long list of really bad things, really bad experiences that our patients in north Wales are having to put up with, that they shouldn't have had to put up with for so long. We need to depoliticise these decisions about when things go into special measures and when they're taken out of special measures. You shouldn't be making those decisions, it should be an independent process that arrives at those decisions. And only then, when we start to see the improvements in our patient experiences in north Wales, are we going to have confidence that this health board is out of the woods and charting a new road to success.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I've heard an objection, and I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

7. Plaid Cymru Debate: Wales-specific COVID inquiry

The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Darren Millar.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 7 is next, and that's the Plaid Cymru debate on a Wales-specific COVID inquiry. I call on Mabon ap Gwynfor to move the motion.

Motion NDM8483 Heledd Fychan
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes that Module 2B of the UK Covid Inquiry will hear evidence in Wales between 27 February 2024 and 14 March 2024.
2. Believes that:
a) Module 2B of the UK Covid inquiry: ‘Core political and administrative decision making in Wales’ is insufficient to enable the Welsh Government and other agencies to learn the lessons from the response to the pandemic in Wales;
b) the core participant list for the UK Covid Inquiry hearings does not include the full range of relevant Welsh organisations;
c) the Wales COVID-19 Inquiry Special Purpose Committee cannot assess the full range of matters related to the Welsh Government’s handling of the pandemic;
d) failure to establish a Wales-specific Covid inquiry undermines devolution;
e) a Wales-specific Covid inquiry is a basic right for all who lost loved ones due to Covid.
3. Recognises the importance of the UK Covid Inquiry in identifying how decisions by the UK Government influenced the Covid response in Wales.
4. Regrets that the Welsh Government, unlike the Scottish Government, has not established a nation-specific Covid inquiry to fully examine the actions and decisions of the Welsh Government before, during and after the pandemic.
5. Calls on the Welsh Government to establish a judge-led Wales Covid inquiry.

Motion moved.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Whether you were a schoolchild forced to adapt to new and unfamiliar methods of learning, a business owner who had to navigate unprecedented convulsions in our economy, an employee placed on furlough schemes, someone whose mental health suffered during the periods of lockdown and the self-isolation, a victim of the debilitating effects of long COVID, or, most importantly of all, a loved one of the 12,500 individuals who have died in Wales as a result of this disease, the coronavirus pandemic touched the lives of every single one of us. It has irrevocably transformed our society, and its legacy will be with us for years to come.
Members will be aware that the public hearings of module 2B of the UK COVID inquiry are due to be held here in Cardiff from the end of this month, when political decision making by this Government will be scrutinised. But while we welcome this renewed focus on Welsh-specific issues, it has been apparent for some time that the scope of the UK inquiry is simply insufficient to cover every element of how the pandemic was handled in Wales. Only a full inquiry for Wales can achieve this, and it is both a democratic and a moral imperative that the Welsh Government heeds the call in today's motion.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: When we talk about the limitations of the UK inquiry, we don't seek to demean its work. Rather, we are simply reflecting the practical reality that a finite inquiry of this nature covering four separate nations that dealt with the pandemic in their own way will never be able to analyse every issue in full, something that Heather Hallett, the chair of the UK inquiry, readily acknowledged from the outset. And from the perspective of Wales, this is underlined by the fact that of the hundreds of hours of public hearings that have already taken place, only a single afternoon has so far been devoted to the testimonies of Welsh Government officials and Ministers.
It's also worth considering the wide range of Welsh organisations that would undoubtedly have valuable insight into the handling of the pandemic, but have nevertheless been denied co-participant status in the UK inquiry, which is primarily due to the inherent constraints of the UK inquiry's scope with respect to Welsh-specific matters. The response to the representation made by the Cardiff and Vale University Health Board for co-participant status, which mentioned that the health board would not receive the degree of focus they initially believed, illustrates this point perfectly.
The Scottish Government, of course, recognised the potential for the UK inquiry to overlook devolved matters early on, and therefore put the interests of the public firmly before their own by establishing the Scottish COVID-19 inquiry. This is what proper accountability and responsible governance looks like. The Welsh Government has since belatedly addressed concerns over gaps in the UK inquiry by creating the special purposes committee, and we await its findings with great interest. But by its very nature, the committee can only perform a reactive role with respect to the course of the UK inquiry, rather than analysing the Welsh dimension of the pandemic in a proactive manner. It may be many years before even a partial verdict of how things were handled in Wales starts to emerge, by which point some, if not all, of the principal decision makers will have departed the political arena.
I stated at the start of my contribution that there is both a democratic and a moral case for establishing a full Welsh inquiry. The former cuts to the very heart of the integrity of the devolution settlement. Throughout the pandemic, the Welsh Government asserted its right to do things differently and they were correct to do so. By utilising the devolved powers at their disposal, they adopted a distinctly evidence-based approach to public safety measures, tailored to the particular characteristics of the Welsh population. This, of course, contrasted markedly with the disastrous bluster, inconsistency and recklessness of the Boris Johnson administration, and which earned the First Minister some praise.
But it would be completely disingenuous to pretend that major mistakes were not made here in Wales. The delay in testing residents at care homes springs immediately to mind, and the Welsh people deserve honest and frank explanations as to the circumstances that led to these mistakes. It is completely hypocritical, therefore, to insist on diverging from UK policy to strike a tailored approach to Wales on the one hand, while ducking tailored scrutiny for the consequences of those actions on the other. Moreover, it does the cause of devolution a considerable disservice by creating the impression that this Senedd cannot hold itself accountable for the laws that are passed here.
If we want Welsh devolution to come of age a quarter of a century since its fledgling beginnings, enabling systematic introspection and self-evaluation of the decisions that are made in our national Parliament is surely a prerequisite. But even if the democratic case for a full inquiry does not resonate with all Members here today, then surely you must recognise the strong moral case of listening to the voices of those who suffered the most during the pandemic.
At this point, I'd like to pay tribute to the tireless campaigning of the COVID-19 Bereaved Families for Justice Cymru group. Anyone who has seen their meticulous and forensic work will know there are few other voices better qualified to pass judgment on the merits of the UK inquiry. And they have been clear it cannot give them the answers, nor the closure, that they have been seeking for several years. The time to correct this injustice is long overdue. We owe it to the people of Wales, and especially those who lost loved ones, to reflect on the legacy of the pandemic openly and honestly through a full independent inquiry in Wales. That is why I urge Members to support this motion.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call on Russell George to move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Darren Millar.

Amendment 1—Darren Millar
Add as new point after point 2 and renumber accordingly:
Recognises that due to the Welsh Government’s refusal to set-up a Welsh Covid inquiry, the Senedd established a special committee to attempt to get answers for the families and friends of those who died during the pandemic.

Amendment 1 moved.

Russell George AC: Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. I move the amendment in the name of my colleague, Darren Millar.
I would like to thank Plaid for bringing forward this debate today, and say and indicate that, as Welsh Conservatives, we’ll be supporting the motion. I would also like to echo Mabon ap Gwynfor’s comments about the COVID-19 Bereaved Families for Justice Cymru group, because they have worked tirelessly, at their own cost and expense, in their contributions towards the UK COVID inquiry, and they have campaigned throughout to establish a Wales-specific COVID inquiry. I would like to put on record my thanks to them, not only for their work as I’ve outlined, but also for their work with Members of this Senedd as they support us.
Now, the Welsh Conservatives have of course been calling for an independent Welsh COVID inquiry for years. The First Minister and other members of the Government often said during the course of that pandemic, ‘We are doing things differently in Wales’, and that was the Government’s right. That is the right of the elected Government of the day, to do that in the best interests of the people of Wales as they consider. But they should also accept the scrutiny of the different path and the path that they took.
Devolution was about bringing decisions closer to the people of Wales, so refusing a Wales-specific COVID inquiry ultimately does undermine devolution. Devolution has meant that various Governments over the last 25 years, Labour or Labour led, have been responsible for the Welsh NHS—for 25 years—and consequently have been responsible for the pandemic preparedness as well. The Government, of course, repeatedly refuse a Wales-wide specific inquiry, stating that they believe a UK inquiry is sufficient, despite, of course, the fact that the Scottish Government did decide themselves to bring forward a Scottish-specific COVID inquiry that collaborates with the UK COVID inquiry.
Now, at the First Minister’s insistence, he said that the UK inquiry would be sufficient. That’s what he said. The First Minister said the UK inquiry would be sufficient, despite Baroness Hallett’s own admission that there is insufficient time to look at every issue and evaluate the situation in Wales fully. This directly points to 2(c) in the motion today.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Russell George AC: Now, there were mistakes made by the Welsh Government. There were mistakes made by the UK Government for England. There were mistakes made in Scotland. There were also right decisions made in Wales, England and Scotland. But that is the point of a public inquiry—to learn from where the mistakes are made and to also be aware and be able to share that good practice when that happens as well. The lead counsel to the UK public inquiry, Hugo Keith KC, has stated that there continue to be significant failings regarding the Welsh Government’s preparedness for the pandemic, citing a lack of resilience in planning and lack of resources and a lack of updating policies. Now, the First Minister has conceded that the Welsh Government was not as prepared as they should have been. Government Ministers like to say, don’t they, ‘We like to do things differently in Wales’, and that is of course true now as well in the way that the Government are dodging scrutiny, and they are dodging scrutiny by not agreeing to a public inquiry.
Now, as Welsh Conservatives, we have only made one amendment to this motion today, and that is to recognise that, due to the Welsh Government’s refusal to set up a Welsh COVID inquiry, the Senedd has established a special committee to attempt to get answers for the families and friends of those who died during the pandemic. But it is still my and the Welsh Conservatives' view that the answers that the bereaved families and the people of Wales deserve are best achieved through a Welsh independent judge-led public inquiry. Diolch, Llywydd.

Adam Price AC: The Senedd has established the Senedd special purpose committee of which I'm a member as an alternative to a Wales-specific COVID inquiry. Our solutions in politics often come in the form of honourable compromises, but, in practice, and as currently constituted, this committee will struggle to have the impact that it needs to. I pay tribute to the work done by the clerks of the committee, who are excellent, and my comments should in no way be interpreted as criticism of my fellow committee members. We are currently exploring ways in which we can strengthen our processes and therefore the end product, but, even with these changes, the committee will remain a poor substitute for what is actually required.
Now, parliamentary scrutiny has a vitally important role. As parliamentarians, we rightly champion it. But this committee inadvertently risks devaluing it, because we've been given a task without the tools to fulfil it. What are the limitations of a parliamentary as opposed to a public inquiry? Well, firstly, they're one of resources. We simply do not have the teams of lawyers and researchers pouring over the hundreds and thousands of individual pieces of evidence that a public inquiry would be able to command. The second problem is the powers we have to compel witnesses to appear and to demand documents are not as clearly set out as those of an inquiry. It remains to be seen if our committee will be given unfettered access to all of the Welsh evidence submitted to the UK inquiry. Will the Welsh Government want politicians from other parties reading the complete log of text and WhatsApp messages, some of which may have nothing to do with the pandemic? The core participants to the UK inquiry have such access and, as such, are now the best informed people in Wales—far more informed than most of us.
Procedurally, evidence given to our committee will not be given under oath. Squeezed into a morning here or an afternoon there, we'll have limited time to explore issues in detail with witnesses, with Members allocated just a few minutes each for their allotted area of questioning. Compare and contrast that with questions asked by learned counsel, involving forensic lengthy analysis of documentary records or the testimony of other witnesses. I fear that we'll end up with a process and an end product that will completely lack public confidence. That would be a disaster for the reputation of this institution, and it would be an incredible disservice to the people we are meant to represent. We are at an impasse. The Government has repeatedly refused to establish a public inquiry, and that leaves us with a committee inquiry that, as its most passionate detractors rightly say, is currently unfit for purpose.
But the fact that the Government refuses to establish a public inquiry under the Inquiries Act 2005 does not mean that we as a Senedd cannot act. We have the power ourselves to establish a parliamentary commission of inquiry. That is what the House of Commons and House of Lords decided to do jointly in 2012, following the financial crisis, in establishing the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards. That commission was established not by Government, but by Parliament. It went beyond a traditional select committee inquiry in that it had non-politician members of the commission, had significantly more resources at its disposal, utilised the parliamentary powers to send for papers and persons in a more systematic way, and enabled counsel to conduct questioning alongside commission members.
So, my proposal, my suggestion, if this motion this evening fails again because of the Government's continued rejection of a public inquiry, is that a group, maybe of senior backbench Members, drawn from all sides of the Senedd, draw up a proposal for a parliamentary commission of inquiry that goes beyond the narrow terms and limitations of the existing committee. I do not know if such a proposal could command a majority in this Senedd, but it is the minimum necessary to command the confidence of the people we represent.

Altaf Hussain AS: As a member of the Wales COVID-19 Inquiry Special Purpose Committee you would expect me to defend our committee, but I cannot. And the special purpose committee is like using a sticking plaster to treat a bad wound. It in no way makes up for the fact that Wales needs an independent judge-led public inquiry into the Welsh Government's handling of the COVID-19 pandemic.
There is simply no way that our committee can replace the work of the dedicated public inquiry. Even our task of identifying the gaps left by the UK COVID-19 inquiry is a near impossible feat. Now, I fail to understand what 'gap' means. Gap between what? Normally you have something like a gap between two cars, a fire gap, a gap between two houses, but here I have absolutely nothing, so what I feel about this terminology is whether it is right.
We don't have access to the vast amount of information provided to core participants of the COVID inquiry. We can't subpoena witnesses, we can't even demand that the First Minister or former health Minister come before us to explain their actions, or lack thereof. All we can do is wait for the UK COVID-19 inquiry to report and try and ascertain what they've missed. How, I don't know. And they will miss things.
Next week the inquiry team will leave London to decamp to a budget hotel on the outskirts of Cardiff to hold public hearings on the actions and decisions taken in Wales in relation to the pandemic. Over the course of just three weeks they will try to distil the years of pre-pandemic planning and examine in detail every decision taken about COVID, the outbreaks and saving lives in Wales.
It's just not possible to get a handle on such important topics in such a short period of time, but that is what the UK inquiry aims to do. We on this side of the Chamber have long advocated for the need for a dedicated Welsh public inquiry. It is the only way the people of Wales will get answers. It is the only way we can be sure that Wales is prepared to deal with disease X, the next pandemic. All the experts agree that it's not a case of if, but a case of when the next pandemic hits, and, if we have not learned the lessons of COVID, how can we be sure that we have made the right preparations?
Sadly, our Government are more interested in evading scrutiny than ensuring our nation can meet future pandemics head on. Decisions were taken in Wales that had a direct impact upon the course the disease took in Wales, and the Welsh public have the right to demand a detailed examination of those decisions. That is not something that can happen as a sub-module of a wider UK inquiry, nor can it be undertaken by a special committee of the Senedd, however well intentioned.
The Scottish have recognised this and are holding their own inquiry alongside the UK one. Why can't we? What are you afraid of, First Minister? Wales deserves answers. We demand an independent, judge-led public inquiry and I urge colleagues to support the motion. Thank you very much.

Heledd Fychan AS: Of course, there needs to be a UK-wide COVID inquiry. And, of course, Wales needs to participate. But, as we've consistently said in support of the COVID bereaved families, there is also a need for a Wales-specific COVID inquiry, just as is taking place in Scotland. Why? Decisions affecting people living in Wales were taken in Wales by Welsh Government Ministers. They were in an unenviable position, having to make significant decisions quickly and in ever-changing circumstances. Some decisions were the right ones, some were the wrong ones, and it's crucial that lessons are learnt so that when the next pandemic arrives we are better prepared as a nation to protect and support as many of our citizens as possible. Avoiding scrutiny, in my view, is not only irresponsible but insulting to all of those who lost loved ones during the pandemic, or whose lives were altered by it. The time allocated to Wales to scrutinise two years of decision making is not adequate.
As Plaid Cymru spokesperson for education, I'd like to focus specifically on the impact the pandemic had on children and young people, and why we need an inquiry that will encompass education. The implications of school closures, disrupted learning, the lack of face-to-face teaching and restrictions on social interaction are unlikely to be fully understood for many years. But it is undisputable that during a period of such significance for personal development, an entire generation in Wales, from primary-age pupils to university students, faced hardships and will inevitably carry that experience with them throughout their future lives.
This became clear during the first year of the pandemic, when a report by the Children's Commissioner for Wales found that 54 per cent of young people between the ages of 12 and 18 were worried about falling behind with their learning, and 52 per cent were worried about how the pandemic would affect their exam results. Since then, there have been numerous studies showing the ongoing toll of the pandemic on the well-being of young people. A report by the school health research network at Cardiff University has found that almost a quarter of secondary school learners in Wales reported having very high levels of mental health symptoms in the years following COVID-19, and this has been compounded by the fact that waiting times for local primary mental health support services are significantly longer for Welsh children compared to adults, as the Government has consistently been unable to meet its target of providing at least 80 per cent of children and young people with referrals within 28 days.
It's unsurprising, therefore, that the 'Well-being of Wales' report for 2023 revealed a downward trend in the life satisfaction of 11 to 16-year-olds from 2017-18 to 2021-22. Meanwhile, the recent Children in Wales members' survey on the impact and legacy of COVID-19 found that 70 per cent of its members, which include Barnardo's Cymru, Mudiad Meithrin and Early Years Wales, reported challenges to their work in supporting children due to the after-effects of the pandemic. We know that social inequalities have been a recurring theme in this context, with absenteeism being a lingering by-product of the pandemic and disproportionately prevalent amongst the most deprived social groups.
The Welsh Government is often quick to cite the impact of COVID when it comes to explaining its record on issues such as educational attainment, as we saw recently with the education Minister's statement on Wales's disappointing PISA results. I completely appreciate the profoundly disruptive nature of the pandemic in this respect, and that any government would have struggled to manage the ongoing fallout, but there is a glaring hypocrisy at play for this Government to attribute so many of its failings to the impact of COVID and yet resist an inquiry into the specific circumstances by which the pandemic was managed here in Wales.
We owe it to our young people to ensure that their experiences of the pandemic are given a fair hearing, and that's why I firmly believe that this Government's refusal to establish an inquiry for Wales is a dereliction of its duty to them. We should never be afraid of scrutiny. We should never be afraid, as politicians, to admit when we get things wrong; it is inevitable in a time of a pandemic. Avoiding scrutiny is irresponsible. We need to learn lessons and apply them, and I fully support the COVID bereaved families, and I'm sad for them that they have to fight for justice and to be able to have these stories heard and listened to, and lessons learnt.

Delyth Jewell AC: Our society is still coming to terms with all that we lost during the COVID pandemic. We are all, in different ways, readjusting; that readjustment will go on for years, I'm sure. So many people, understandably, would rather forget, would rather we moved on—stopped speaking about it. But, don't you see? That betrays the memories of the ones we lost, the people who were so loved, all those we still mourn, the unlucky ones, the ones whose immune systems were compromised, the ones whose safety, whose right to live, was compromised. Let us never forget the casual callousness with which the phrase 'underlying health conditions' took root, as though that set some deaths apart, as though they counted differently. But they counted each the same. Whole lives, complicated and messy and living and true, whether locked in care homes or behind their own four walls, they mattered and counted just the same. When we allowed that phrase to gain such ground, something was taken from us, too. There are still so many unanswered questions that remain.
I tried, and failed, in the spring of 2020, to understand why there was a delay in acknowledging the fact that COVID could be transmitted asymptomatically; why care home residents weren't tested for COVID when leaving hospital. I spoke to care home managers whose residents, they believed, died as a result of that policy. Demanding answers about those decisions should not cause controversy. Like so many devastatingly high numbers of people, I lost a loved one who was living in a care home. So many people died alone and the sense prevails that the uncomfortable truths about their deaths were swept under some carpet. For the bereaved families, it is a nightmare from which they've never awoken because of those unanswered questions: why those changes relating to testing were delayed in Wales, which left so many people vulnerable; why photographs were taken on wards and in morgues, then published, photographs of their dying relatives; and perhaps, most urgently now, why bereavement support for these grieving families is still so patchy across Wales, when the trauma they're suffering shows no sign of relenting.
The threat of future pandemics is rising with the tides of our changing climate. Building resilience and preparedness for our future must begin in earnest now, and establishing a Welsh inquiry would help to set those foundations for our futures' sake. Because, Llywydd, none of this is about appointing blame—who would gain from that? There were things we got right during the pandemic, others we got wrong. If we are to learn from the latter, those wrongs should be acknowledged to make sure that they count for something. It is not about settling scores, or scoring anything; everybody lost, there is no other score. But somehow, amidst the charts and percentage points, the harsh statistics, we must find a solution that allows us to look back on those years, not just through science, but solace, too, a willingness to come together again, because there is still so much to reconcile ourselves to: the choices that were made not just nationally, but personally; the things we missed out on, what we lost.
Llywydd, I checked the definition of 'wisdom' before this debate. One of the definitions is a
'body of knowledge and experience that develops within a specified society or period'.
There is a depth of wisdom we could still acquire—that we must acquire—from those pandemic years. The experiences that knotted us together and kept us apart all at once. The intensity of the calamity we suffered. The cost we are all still counting. It is not retribution or blame we should be seeking, it is wisdom, gleaned though sadness and pain and all the more vital because of it. A shared understanding. A reconciliation to what happened. A stock. A reckoning we can agree upon. An account that would count for more than the sum of all those statistics. An account of what happened that gives credit to every story. Not a charge, but a balance, written in wisdom and reconciled to learning from our past.

Sioned Williams AS: There was a time when the pandemic was referred to as the great leveller, a catastrophic event that would transcend social barriers and affect us all equally—if the Prime Minister can get COVID, we can all get COVID. But the experience of the past four years since the initial outbreak has comprehensively demonstrated the fallacy of this notion, and, rather, the impact of the pandemic has served to entrench and exacerbate deep-rooted and intersectional inequalities in our society, especially along the lines of class, race, gender and disability.

Sioned Williams AS: The inequal impact is immediately apparent when the mortality rates in Wales are assessed according to levels of deprivation. Put simply, this means the risk of dying from COVID was over 80 per cent higher in poorer households, compared with the most affluent. This discrepancy was even more pronounced during the peak of the pandemic. So, no, this was no leveller. We know that poverty makes you sick, that poverty kills, and the pandemic demonstrated this quite literally and on a terrible scale.
Mortality rates are only one measure of the pandemic's contribution to widening social inequalities. The impact of the pandemic on mental health outcomes, for example, was disproportionately higher amongst black and minority ethnic people, who were 55 per cent more likely to report problems associated with mental distress compared with white individuals during the first wave of the pandemic. A similar pattern emerges from the perspective of income levels. While the highest income earners in Wales experienced a 6.5 per cent deterioration in their mental health during COVID, the average figure for those in the lowest income quintile was 39 per cent.
People on low incomes or who were already likely to be living in or close to the poverty threshold were also seven times more likely to be working in a sector that was completely shut down during the pandemic, and with approximately 10 per cent of the Welsh workforce, who were more likely to be women or disabled people, not earning enough to qualify for statutory sick pay, the prospect of having to self-isolate for those earners meant a terrible choice of either putting their health at risk or putting their ability to pay their bills at risk. It's also worth remembering that the current cost-of-living crisis, which is being felt hardest by the most disadvantaged sectors of our society, is partially a by-product of the economic disruption and dislocation caused by the pandemic.
As such, establishing a full Welsh inquiry would not only shed light on previous Government actions, it could also provide a platform for an essential public conversation on the ongoing and corrosive impact of inequalities in our society and on the different groups in our society, many of whom suffer intersectional disadvantage. Though we lack Welsh-specific data on this matter, it's clear that the pandemic posed a disproportionate risk to the health of black and minority ethnic people. For example, black men were 2.2 times more likely to die of COVID than white men. Black women were one and a half times more likely to die of COVID than white women.
And as the 'Locked out' report so powerfully showed us, 68 per cent of deaths from COVID-19 were among disabled people in Wales. The report illustrates how social factors, including discrimination, poor housing, poverty, employment status, institutionalisation, lack of PPE, poor and patchy services, inaccessible and confusing public information and personal circumstances significantly contributed to this figure. The report called on the Welsh Government to establish a national inquiry into factors affecting the deaths of different groups during the pandemic, including disabled people, as well as calling for the UK Government to launch a wider four-nations inquiry. It was never seen as an either/or, and it isn't an either/or. The report called for a Wales-based inquiry not only to review the evidence and recommendations of the report and others like it, but also to be capable of developing legally enforceable actions and remedies, because it was shameful what happened, and it must not be allowed to happen again.
So, how can we ensure that? Well, by the Government doing everything in its power to learn those bitter lessons—as Delyth Jewell said, what was done right, what was done wrong—because the Government has a duty to do so, a duty to those who lost their lives, a duty to those who lost their loved ones. There was so much talk of building back better. The levels of intersectional inequality we are seeing in Wales demand that we try to do so, but without a comprehensive Welsh inquiry, we do not have the full knowledge we need to be able to do so.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The Counsel General to contribute to the debate—Mick Antoniw.

Mick Antoniw AC: Llywydd, the Welsh Government has shown a clear commitment to the process of scrutinising and learning lessons from the COVID-19 pandemic. When the UK COVID-19 inquiry hearings come to Wales next week for module 2B, it is natural that there will be more focus on the actions and decisions taken by the Welsh Government. This will be a challenging time again for everyone who lost a loved one or who was otherwise affected by the pandemic. Llywydd, I want to take this opportunity to extend my sympathy to everyone who is still mourning the loss of a relative or friend.

Mick Antoniw AC: Llywydd, while the inquiry will be sitting in Wales for the next couple of weeks, it is important that we do not view these hearings as the only time events in Wales will be closely examined during the course of this inquiry. It is incorrect to assume that the information seen and heard during this time is the only material about Wales that the chair will be considering. The chair has been very clear in the current hearings for module 2 that she will be taking into account the full range of material provided, including all the written statements and documentary evidence, before drawing any conclusions. The Welsh Government has submitted many thousands of documents and in excess of 70 statements for module 2B alone. We have made and we will continue to make contributions to the evidence gathered for all the inquiry's work in all the modules.
I'll now turn to the matter of core participant status. It is for the chair of the inquiry to determine, based on a very specific set of criteria, which has been published, who should be a core participant. Having core participant status or not does not affect the chair's ability to request written information, or hear evidence from any person or organisation. The chair has requested evidence from those in Wales who are not core participants in module 2B, and as we saw during the first module, we can expect material to be submitted by individuals or organisations from across Wales, far beyond those on the core participant list.
The inquiry has also been proactive in taking views of bereaved families and the public into consideration right from the start. It held a four-week public consultation over its terms of reference and met more than 150 bereaved families from across the UK and representatives from many sectors. The chair's first stop during this process was Wales. The inquiry has established the Every Story Matters project to gather people's personal experience, and whilst touring the UK last year, the inquiry visited Wrexham and Ruthin in November.
Llywydd, the UK COVID-19 inquiry is an inquiry for Wales, as much as it is an inquiry for England or any other UK nation. As a Government, we are clear that participation in a UK-wide inquiry is the right approach and the most effective way to ensure full and proper scrutiny of actions and experiences here in Wales during the pandemic in a way that will allow us to learn important lessons for the future.

Heledd Fychan AS: I don't think we're arguing against participation in the UK inquiry in any way; of course we should be. What we're arguing for is parity. Why do you think Scotland are doing this? Is it pointless that they're doing it? Do you think that they're wasting their time or do you see that there is value in what they're doing in Scotland? We're simply asking for parity. Because surely they can't look at all the issues through this UK-wide inquiry, because they're looking at UK decisions, mainly. Bereaved families want to have their voices heard. There's not that opportunity in the UK-wide inquiry in the same way as is happening in Scotland.

Mick Antoniw AC: I've been following the progress of the Scottish inquiry up to October 2022, when the chair and four counsel resigned from the Scottish inquiry. It is obviously a matter for the Scottish Government in terms of the explanation as to their inquiry and their priorities. I remain to be convinced that it will add anything significantly beyond what will be attained from the UK inquiry. The inquiry has the capacity, powers and force to oversee the interconnected nature of the decisions that were made across the four nations. The Welsh Government took an active role in shaping the terms of reference for the UK inquiry, including input from bereaved families in Wales, setting out what we would expect to see to ensure that Wales was fully included.
We are still at a relatively early stage of the inquiry. We are part way through the hearings in the second module, and the inquiry is preparing to publish its report in relation to the first module shortly. But before a single hearing has been held in module 2B, this motion is prematurely stating that it won't be good enough. The focus of some in this Chamber on the Senedd's Wales COVID-19 Inquiry Special Purpose Committee is not on what it can do and will do, but again on what it won't do before it has even had an opportunity to get to work. I believe that we must avoid premature assumptions, and we must allow both the inquiry and the committee to complete their work in due course. The Government will not be agreeing to this motion nor supporting amendments to it, and I encourage other Members to do the same. Diolch. [Interruption.]

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I think the Minister has just finished.

Mark Isherwood AC: Have you finished, Minister?

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Yes, he has. The file is closing.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Mabon ap Gwynfor to reply to the debate.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: You might try again, Mr Isherwood. [Laughter.]

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you. I will invite Mark to contribute if he wishes to do so.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: No, no, it's okay. Leave Mabon ap Gwynfor carry on.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you to everyone for contributing to this debate. It has been a very powerful debate, and I'm convinced that the case has been made for the need for an independent Welsh public inquiry. As one contributor said—I think it was Delyth who said it—the purpose of our motion and the purpose of establishing an independent inquiry is not to point the finger and to find blame. And that's the problem with politics, particularly the politics we exercise here in Wales and in the UK, this fear to acknowledge blame or that mistakes have been made and the fear of how that will have a political impact on people. But each and every one of us here, those who were elected and those who weren't, have played a part in that process of coming to decisions, and we all need to learn those lessons as we move forward. I am therefore disappointed to hear the Counsel General saying that he is entirely confident that the UK inquiry will look at what happened in Wales in its entirety and that it will be sufficient and adequate. It's clearly obvious that it won't be adequate. [Interruption.] I will give way.

Mark Isherwood AC: Do you share my concern that both COVID-19 Bereaved Families for Justice Cymru and their barristers, speaking in the Senedd, directly contradicted what the Counsel General has just said and which you've just requoted from him?

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I absolutely do agree with that. Even the chair of the UK inquiry, as has been stated several times in the debate today, has made clear that the UK inquiry is not sufficient and can't cover everything and can't look at the details in Wales.
As I said, it's not about just apportioning blame; there were some good things that happened in Wales. I'm thinking specifically about Ceredigion and what Ceredigion County Council did. I remember reading headlines in newspapers across the UK pointing to the good things that were done in Ceredigion—good lessons that we can learn, as well as some of the mistakes that were made. And the truth is—and I can't remember which Member made this point; maybe Altaf said it—this will happen again. We know that we're facing another pandemic—maybe soon, maybe not in our lifetime, but we will face it. And if we are to face it confidently, we need to learn the lessons from what we did here in Wales.
We're thinking about the fact that, in Wales, we allowed people to go back to their care homes. Was that the right decision? In hindsight, probably not, but without a full inquiry we won't know fully. I'm thinking of my son, who had to go to school via Zoom. Was there another way of doing that, of educating our children during a pandemic period, during a lockdown period? We don't know at the moment. The lockdown itself—were the lockdowns the right length, could they have been done in another way?
I know, in parts of Wales,that the Government introduced local lockdowns. Was that the right decision at the time? Should that have been spread out more or not? These issues need to be learned. We know that here in Wales we had Exercise Cygnus back in 2015; what lessons were learnt from Cygnus and were they put in place? And have those lessons been learnt moving forward? For instance, currently in Wales, we know that hospitals aren't making sure that staff are wearing FFP2 and FFP3 masks. Those are lessons that certainly should have been learnt, but are clearly not currently, so where are we at with learning best practice and bad practice from those experiences?
I think Adam made a really important contribution there about the idea of developing and establishing a parliamentary commission, and I think that's something we all need to consider and the Government should look at with interest. It's certainly an option for us to have, next to an inquiry, something that will look at all of the lessons from the COVID experiences that we have.
And finally, one thing I think the Counsel General did say that I think was important: you mentioned that it is going to be a difficult experience for everybody, and you did extend your sympathies. I think we all need to think about the language that we use. Over the last few days, I've heard members of the Government saying that they were looking forward to giving evidence to the COVID inquiry in Cardiff. Bereaved families aren't looking forward. This is triggering in the extreme for those families. I would urge people to consider carefully the language that they use. It's not something to look forward to; it's an imperative, it's something that they have to do and do so with dignity and with wisdom. So, hopefully you'll consider the words that you use as Government members when you do talk to the cameras on this issue.
So, the case has been made. It's absolutely clear that here in Wales we do need an independent inquiry. Both sides of the Chamber, as far as the Conservatives and Plaid Cymru are concerned, have made it clear that we support this, and I would urge other members of the Labour Party as well to support this motion before us today. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? Yes, there are objections. We will defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

8. Voting Time

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: That brings us to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, we will move immediately to voting. The first vote this afternoon is on the Welsh Conservatives debate on Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. I call for a vote first on the motion without amendment tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 16, no abstentions, 37 against, and therefore the motion is not agreed.

Item 6. Welsh Conservatives' Debate - Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. Motion without amendment: For: 16, Against: 37, Abstain: 0
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: We will now vote on amendment 1. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. A vote on amendment 1, in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. The vote is tied, and therefore I will exercise my casting vote against the amendment. The amendment is therefore not agreed, with 27 in favour and 28 against.

Item 6. Welsh Conservatives' Debate - Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths: For: 27, Against: 27, Abstain: 0
As there was an equality of votes, the Llywydd used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: We will now vote on amendment 2, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. The vote is tied, so I will exercise my casting vote against the amendment. The result is that there were 27 in favour and 28 against. The amendment is not agreed.

Item 6. Welsh Conservatives' Debate - Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. Amendment 2, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan: For: 27, Against: 27, Abstain: 0
As there was an equality of votes, the Llywydd used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: We will now move to amendment 3, in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. The vote is tied. I will exercise my casting vote against the amendment, and so the amendment is not agreed, with 27 in favour and 28 against. Therefore, amendment 3 and all other amendments have not been agreed and neither has the motion, so nothing is agreed under that item.

Item 6. Welsh Conservatives' Debate - Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. Amendment 3, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan: For: 27, Against: 28, Abstain: 0
As there was an equality of votes, the Llywydd used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: We will now move to votes under item 7, the Plaid Cymru debate on a Wales-specific COVID inquiry. I call for a vote on the motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. The vote is tied. Therefore, I exercise my casting vote against the motion, and so the result of the vote is that there were 27 in favour, no abstentions and 28 against. The motion without amendment is not agreed.

Item 7. Plaid Cymru Debate - Wales-specific COVID inquiry. Motion without amendment: For: 27, Against: 28, Abstain: 0
As there was an equality of votes, the Llywydd used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: We will now move to a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 16, no abstentions, and 38 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is not agreed. So, the amendment is not agreed and neither is the motion, so nothing is agreed under item 7.

Item 7. Plaid Cymru Debate - Wales-specific COVIDinquiry. Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Darren Millar: For: 16, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: That concludes voting time.

9. Short Debate: The importance of Wales's voice in the campaign for peace—Celebrating the hundredth anniversary of presenting the peace petition by the Women of Wales to President Coolidge and Wales's role in speaking up for peace today

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: But it doesn't bring our business for the day to an end. We will now move to the short debate, to be introduced by Sioned Williams. For those of you leaving the Chamber—

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: —if those of you leaving could leave quietly now. Sioned Williams to introduce her debate.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: So, Sioned Williams to introduce the debate.

Sioned Williams AS: Thank you very much, Llywydd. Exactly a century ago this month, in February 1924, four Welsh women landed in New York, holding a bouquet of daffodils, a bound memorial containing an appeal for peace, and a petition signed by 390,296 Welsh women. Their goal was to present them to the women of the United States of America, asking them to use their influence to encourage the United States Government to join the League of Nations as a means of avoiding future conflicts, and the horrors of the world war that they had just experienced.
The aim of my debate today is to mark the centenary of this extraordinary campaign and ask what its significance is for Wales today. A century later, the Hawlio Heddwch project explores this question, as well as ensuring that this remarkable story is remembered for generations to come. I would like to thank Ffion Fielding, the Hawlio Heddwch project manager, for her support in preparing this debate, and I will give some time to Carolyn Thomas, Jane Dodds, Mabon ap Gwynfor and Heledd Fychan to contribute as well.
Exactly a century ago to the day, on 21 February 1924, Annie Hughes Griffiths, Mary Ellis, Gladys Thomas and Elined Pryce had a very special appointment with President Calvin Coolidge at the White House in Washington DC. They showed him the appeal, the magnificent, beautifully written document bound in Moroccan leather. I would like to quote the last paragraph, which is so powerful, in the original Welsh translation of it, which was made at the time of the appeal, so that it could be read in the language of every household in Wales.
'The future is big with hope if we, as the women of this generation, do our part. To us has come an opportunity as real as the responsibility is grave. We would, therefore, appeal to you, Women of the United States of America, "with malice towards none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right" to aid in the effort to hand down to the generations which come after us the proud heritage of a warless world.'

Sioned Williams AS: The petition, in its oak chest, had already been presented to the women of America at a grand reception at the Biltmore Hotel, in New York, a few days before. However, during their meeting with President Coolidge, the four Welsh women managed to secure a pledge from him that the signatures would be kept in the Smithsonian museum forever, and he was given a copy of the appeal.
The aim of the campaign was to inspire and influence the US Government to play its part in the Permanent Court of International Justice so that international conflicts could be resolved through law rather than through war. The appeal was not one to governments, but to ordinary American women to use their influence, to persuade their Government to join this early attempt to make international law a means of securing peace. And although the campaign attracted a great deal of attention in the press at the time, this campaign was more or less forgotten. And at the Smithsonian, the petition remained in its chest, until 2023.
What, therefore, is the story of the Hawlio Heddwch partnership and campaign that brought the petition and the appeal back to our attention? The work that led to this project began several years ago with the discovery of the beautiful monument in the Temple of Peace, the headquarters of the Welsh Centre for International Affairs charity. But it wasn't until a previous peace heritage project, Wales for Peace, received funding to start exploring these stories, with the help of volunteers, that we started to understand the full impact of the petition. The Welsh women's peace petition was one of several campaigns launched by the Welsh League of Nations Union, which was a sort of a fan club for the principles of the League of Nations. By the end of the 1920s, the Welsh League of Nations Union would become one of the largest membership organisations in Wales, with over 1,000 local community branches and 61,000 members campaigning enthusiastically on international issues of the day. And at a time when the majority of women in Wales did not have the right to vote, the peace petition was one of the very few opportunities that ordinary women had to voice their opinion. Between May 1923 and January 1924, there were 400 petition organisers throughout Wales, coming from all backgrounds, Welsh speakers and non-Welsh speakers alike, of all denominations and of every political stripe. There are stories of organisers walking miles just to reach one farmhouse. In total, 390,296 signatures were collected, which is around 30 per cent or one in six of the female population of Wales at the time.
In the years after the memorial was rediscovered, interest in this history grew. A group of women, called Heddwch Nain-Mamgu, started a campaign to remember the history, to find the petition, with the aim of using the petition as a means of engaging people today with issues related to peace and conflict. It was this group that contacted our national institutions—the national library, Amgueddfa Cymru—and thanks to the momentum that they generated, and their complete determination, the project started. Over the next few years, under the co-ordination of the Welsh Centre for International Affairs and the Welsh peace academy, through contacts in Washington, through the research undertaken by members of the Women's Archive Wales, and the determination of individuals, the story was put together. It was quite an achievement.
The big development was when they secured an agreement from the Smithsonian museum not only to support the digitisation of the names, but to offer to give the entire petition back to Wales for further study under the supervision of the national library. And the oak chest and its special contents were welcomed back to Wales in April last year.
At the moment, staff at the national library are working their way through the 33 boxes of petition text, to protect them, to scan them, to catalogue them, tag their locations, and generally tackle a document that would, it was said at the time, reach 7 miles in length from one end to the other.
Hundreds of volunteers have been recruited to help transcribe all the names into a searchable database, which will provide a valuable and unique resource for future researchers, and for us as the citizens of Wales today. Among them there is one very special signature. I didn't expect to find the name of any one related to me on the petition.
My four great-grandmothers were the wives of miners in Rhymney and Fochriw, unable to get an education beyond their primary school, struggling every day to keep the wolf from the door. How would these women have time to consider the big issues of the day, like the importance of international peace? But I was wrong. There was the name of my great-grandmother, Bessie Evans, of Price Street in Rhymney, the grandmother of my father, Philip, the mother of my grandmother, Nansi—the only grandmother I had the privilege of knowing, and who was a huge influence on me in terms of the essence of my politics. She died in 1944, aged 69, and I know quite a bit about her. She took in people's washing to earn a little more money for the family of five. She was a strong woman, big like me, and firm in her beliefs, a faithful member of Ebenezer Twyn-Carno Methodist chapel in Rhymney. Seeing her name together with the names of her two eldest daughters, bopa Miriam and bopa Elizabeth, my grandmother's sisters, was a thrill and, obviously, very emotional.
It was also an important and clear message from the past: the voice of my foremothers calling me through the decades and answering my question. They had signed this petition because they understood entirely that it was ordinary, poor people like them who paid the high price of war, because they understood entirely the importance of society and co-operation, and, through their non-conformist Christian faith, that they had to act, that Wales needed to raise its voice as a nation on the world stage.
The wonderful and proud history of the petition sends a message to us all in Wales today about the importance of action, about the importance of taking a stand, and about the long and proud tradition of Wales, and Welsh women in particular, of speaking out on international issues. We can think of Wales's role in campaigning for the abolition of slavery, and women like Jessie Donaldson from Swansea, who travelled to Cincinnati to set up a safe house for runaway slaves, and the sisters Sarah and Blanche Hilditch who welcomed Frederick Douglass to Wrexham.
I was at a peace march in Swansea recently calling for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza. I marched with women from Swansea who had been at Greenham Common, and co-members of CND. As chair of the cross-party group on violence against women and children, I have written to both our Governments to emphasise the fact that it is women and children who have suffered most as a result of the attacks by Israel on Gaza, and encouraging them to call clearly and publicly for a permanent ceasefire. So, in bearing in mind the history of this petition, why does the Welsh Government not feel that it could do that? It spoke very fluently about the situation in Ukraine yesterday, and I heard two Members state their opinions clearly, so why the silence about the war in Gaza? We shouldn't treat this petition as just a piece of history, without exploring its significance and inspiration today. The reason that the words of the appeal resonate so much is that they are just as important today as they were a century ago. If we do call ourselves a nation of sanctuary, why not a nation of peace?
It's possible to see the petition, of course, as a failure. America did not join the League of Nations, and there was another world war, and wars continue to this day, but the fact is that the desire of so many of our foremothers to seek peace and demand action in the name of peace, is exceptionally powerful in itself and is a clear message to the Welsh Government today.
So, how does the Government intend to ensure that the petition will never be forgotten again, and, beyond the wonderful events and projects that will be held this year to mark the centenary, how will the Government ensure that the impact and message continues to be an influence on us and future generations after the celebrations end in October?
Wales should be proud of its heritage and the role that it has played in leading the work of seeking international peace, and supporting the structures to try and ensure that. How do we ensure that this proud and important tradition continues today?
In an article in The Guardian, Dr Rowan Williams draws a comparison between what the petition says about how the people of Wales were willing to take responsibility and have confidence in their ability to change things, and the work of the commission on the constitutional future of Wales. He says:

Sioned Williams AS: 'It is high time to invest more imaginatively in local deliberative networks and in ongoing civic education—in the hope of nourishing the confidence that inspired Annie and her colleagues, the confidence that what they said and did was capable of changing things, and that those who hold the levers of power can be held accountable by an informed, critical, hopeful public.'

Sioned Williams AS: Is the Government willing to accept his recommendation, and if so, how can that be realised? What will success look like?

Carolyn Thomas AS: Thank you to Sioned Williams for bringing this important short debate to the Senedd, at a time when voices for peace in our communities and political institutions are more important than ever. Wales has a proud history as a nation of peace. We are a nation of sanctuary. The peace petition by the women of Wales is a shining example of that remarkable, enduring Welsh tradition, and I enjoyed reading the display at the Eisteddfod about it last year, celebrating 100 years.
Today we live in a more volatile world than ever before, with technological advances allowing many acts of warfare to be carried out like little more than simulation, but with consequences that are just as deadly as traditional armed conflict. That volatile world necessitates a global chorus for peace, inclusive of this Senedd, which is why our recent vote for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza was so important and, moving forward, it's why we must continue to evoke the spirit of women in Wales and speaking up for peace today and peaceful resolutions.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Jane Dodds.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you very much, and thank you to Sioned too.

Jane Dodds AS: Greenham Common, the grandmothers in Argentina, the women in Iran—these are all places and times where women have played a significant role in bringing peace, long-lasting peace. And if we look at research, it shows that women can change the picture of war all over the world. A study of 40 peace processes in 35 countries over the last three decades showed that when women's groups were able to effectively influence the peace process, an agreement was almost always reached. When women didn't participate, the rate of reaching an agreement was much, much lower. I don't need to say that, really, women play such an important role in bringing around peace, and that's what we must celebrate as well as these wonderful women who left Wales.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you very much to you all.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you for this debate, because I remember back in 2007, I gave a lecture in Caernarfon on peace and the history of peace, and Wales has a very proud tradition of peace. And in doing the research, I read about Evan Rees, the first secretary of the Peace Society, back in 1816; the apostle of peace from Tregaron, Henry Richard—a great man of the time; and George M.Ll. Davies, another big character. But quite characteristic of all our history, they were all men, and the women were missing from our history, until, of course, one thought about the sisters of Greenham Common, my mother was one of them, who stood up for global peace, and now this, which has emerged, what you, Sioned, were talking about, namely the sisters who had ensured that this petition was so successful, and had taken it to America to put the case for peace.
So, we have a proud tradition of campaigning for peace here in Wales, and here we see people like Awel Irene, Mererid Hopwood, Jill Evans, Bethan Siân Jones, and so on, pushing that agenda forward, and the peace academy created because of the work undertaken by those sisters. So, that tradition is continuing. I'm so proud of it, and that's why we here in the national Parliament of Wales must continue to stand up for global peace, and to ensure that our Government does likewise and ensures that Wales does stand up for Gaza and Ukraine, as the Government has done today. Thank you, Sioned.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Sioned, for bringing this forward. It is so very important that we do thank everyone who's been involved with this project. But also it reminds us how important our national collections are, and the skills that we have within the national library and so on that allow this project to move forward. We've heard of the threats because of cuts in the national library. We must safeguard our heritage, because there's a powerful link between you personally and that petition —just imagine that every young woman and girl in Wales who has a relative in that petition could discover that, and what that would mean for democracy and this feeling that everyone has power and a voice, whatever their role. It's a powerful message. We must safeguard our heritage because of what it means today, and in the international context, it's crucial that we do understand that we're not just little old Wales—we're a great nation where everyone's voice counts, and that's the power of this petition to encourage us that we must raise our voice now too.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The First Minister now to reply to the debate. Mark Drakeford.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, thank you very much, and thank you to Sioned Williams and everyone else who has contributed to an important and inspiring debate today.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I'm looking at a photograph of those four women who took the peace petition across to America. It's at the top of the article that Sioned Williams referred to by Dr Rowan Williams. There they are, the four of them. They are formidable. They are determined looking. And when I first saw the photograph, I knew it reminded me of something, and then I realised it was because I look at them every week across the table at the Cabinet in the Welsh Government. And maybe that is partly because there are direct descendants of those people who were involved. Eluned Morgan's great-aunty Dil was the organiser of the petition in Pembrokeshire, and in the way that Sioned Williams said too, many, many families still today, with this new great resource, will find themselves connected to the actions of that incredible band of women 100 years now ago.
As you've heard, the peace petition was presented to President Calvin Coolidge, 'silent Cal', as he was known as a man of very few words, one of the 16 American Presidents to have Welsh origins. And one of the most moving documents that I've seen in the archive now in Aberystwyth is the women's account of that meeting in the Oval Office in the White House, where President Coolidge reminds them of his own Welsh history and his own Welsh origins.
Of course, Llywydd, when men and women from Wales went to America in the nineteenth century, they were republicans. They were republicans because they belonged to the great reforming party of Lincoln, who abolished slavery. By the time you get to 1923, Calvin Coolidge himself is a more traditional republican in economic terms, but still a strong supporter of women's suffrage and very stalwart in his support for racial equality. It was his Government that placed the Indian Citizenship Act of 1924 on the statute book in America, the first Act that guaranteed US citizenship to Native Americans.
He was a man of few words, as I said. He called a press conference to announce that he would not stand again for election as President. When all the press were assembled, the door was locked, and he handed out to each one of them a slip of paper that he then invited them to open. They turned it over and it said on it, 'I do not choose to run for President.' When he was asked if he had anything further that he wanted to add, he simply said 'No', and that was the end of the press conference. So, there are some good lessons to learn, I think, even after all those years.
Now, the peace petition was, of course, a reaction to the slaughter of the first world war, a reaction that was profound all over Europe. The Urdd, which we've heard about already this evening—and I'll say a bit more later on—was itself one of a whole swathe of youth movements founded in the shadow of the slaughter. And here in Wales, of course, it was a non-uniform movement—remember the great youth movements of before the war, the Scouts, the Boys' Brigade, the Guides; they were all uniformed movements—and it was a movement open to young men and to young women. It was part of that great world peace movement.
The peace petition has the same genesis, but the peace movement in Wales, as we have heard, has far deeper roots. In that article by Rowan Williams, he reminds us that Annie Hughes Griffiths's first husband was Tom Ellis, the Liberal MP whose statue is to be found still in Bala, that great lost hope of the Cymru Fydd movement, the direct descendent of devolution and the Senedd today. Before Tom Ellis, and overlapping with him, was indeed that great son of Tregaron, Henry Richard, the apostol heddwch, a man who was the secretary to the Peace Society in the great year of European revolutions in 1848, and became the Member of Parliament for Merthyr.

Mark Drakeford AC: The early 1920s were a time of enormous flux. Here in Wales, in 1921 you have the election at the Caerphilly by-election of the first MP who had been a conscientious objector during the first world war. Extraordinary, isn’t it, to think of Morgan Jones, who had spent the first world war imprisoned in Wormwood Scrubs, and only three years later was elected as the Labour MP for Caerphilly, and on that peace prospect. There’s a great biography of him by his successor, Wayne David, if colleagues haven’t had a chance to see that. That’s 1921. In 1922 the foundation of Urdd Gobaith Cymru. In 1923 the peace petition, and in 1924 the publication of it at the White House, and publication of one of the first pamphlets produced by the Welsh national council of the League of Nations. That pamphlet is a tribute to and a life of Henry Richard, and is produced by that council, chaired by David Davies Llandinam, Lord Davies, who funded the temple of peace, which we’ve heard about this evening as well. The petitioners and the petition draw on that very rich heritage of Welsh engagement in movements for peace.
But I do think that we ought to pause for a moment, because there is more than one strand in Welsh history too. Just as women from Swansea went to Cincinnati to be part of the freedom trail of slaves in America, so the end of the first world war in Wales was marked by race riots in both Newport and in Cardiff. A war that began, as Aled Eirug says in his book, The Opposition to the Great War in Wales 1914-1918, by showing just how quickly the pacifist tradition of nineteenth-century Welsh nonconformity was overturned in that initial enthusiasm for the great war. There in 1914 the National Eisteddfod was given over to celebrating the entry of the United Kingdom into the great war. St David’s Day that year was given over to fundraising for the war effort. In 1916 the only Welsh person ever to become Prime Minister was David Lloyd George, and he was appointed in order to lead Wales and the United Kingdom through the war. As I say, the war ended as it had begun—it began with Ivor Novello, a native of Cowbridge Road in my own constituency, whose lyrics and song, ‘Keep the Home-Fires Burning’, dominated popular culture in the opening of the war.
‘They were summoned from the hillside, / They were called in from the glen, / And the country found them ready / At the stirring call for men’.
Yes, Wales has a proud history of our investment in movements for peace, but there’s more than one strand in Welsh history, and we don’t do it justice if we simply look away from the fact that, in many places and in many times, the enthusiasm for warfare has also been part of our history.
Llywydd, to return to the main story, as Mabon ap Gwynfor said, if you’re not careful, when you start talking about this period in our history, you end up talking, as I have done so far, all about men. And yet this was a history of women, out there collecting for that peace petition. So, I want to mention just three women out of many others who could have been mentioned, to mark that wider contribution.

Mark Drakeford AC: The Temple of Peace was opened in 1938, so it's less than two years before the outbreak of the second world war. It was opened by Mrs Minnie James of Dowlais, a woman who had lost all three of her sons in the conflict between 1914 and 1918. She said this on the steps of the Temple of Peace:
'In the name of the women of Wales it is my privilege to open the building. I dedicate it to the memorial to those gallant men of all nations who gave their lives in the war that was to end war.'
Well, I think, as Mabon said, it didn't at all, and it didn't within very short order, but that didn't mean that the efforts of the petitioners and the efforts of Minnie James and those who stood alongside her on the stepsthat day were not serious and significant.
The first woman MP with Welsh connections is often overlooked in our own history. We forget that Edith Picton-Turbervill, who was a Member of Parliament for the Wrekin just across the border in that short Labour Government of 1929 to 1931, came originally from Ewenny Priory in the Vale of Glamorgan. She was from an aristocratic family, but she was a socialist and she was a suffragette and her brief period in the House of Commons was largely dedicated to the pursuit of women's issues. She is probably the first woman from Wales ever to get a piece of legislation onto the statute book, when she promoted and persuaded the House of Commons to pass the Sentence of Death (Expectant Mothers) Bill, which successfully abolished the death penalty for expectant women in the United Kingdom.
And, just for a moment—because, as Sioned said, this can be an emotional journey when we think of these lives and what they did and what they meant—I'm going to, just for moment, say something about Mrs Morgan. So, I came to Cardiff in 1979, and, very early in the 1990s, a benign group of magistrates decided that a 12-year-old child called John Morgan needed help, and the help that he got came in the unlikely appearance of me, in my early 20s. I would go, every week, up the many flights of the block of flats on the Hollybush estate in Whitchurch, because John lived with his grandmother, Mrs Morgan, who was as old as the century, and, in her early 80s, she had taken on the care of her grandson. And I wasn't much use to John, I don't think, but I hope I was at least a bit of help to Mrs Morgan, if only because I was an audience for the stories that she was always keen to tell. And when I sat in her front room, there were always two things that she needed to tell me. The first was of her deep and abiding dislike of Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher. I thought I disliked Mrs Thatcher, but Mrs Morgan could outdo me on any week. And the second story that she wanted to tell me was always of how, as a 16-year old, in 1916, she would get on a tram in Cardiff and travel down to the bay to work in a munitions factory as part of the war effort. Mrs Morgan was a suffragette who'd gone on marches in Cardiff, and she was a socialist too. She was absolutely one of those people who you imagine signing that peace petition, and, well into our own lifetimes, those people were still fighting the good fight for the progressive causes that the petitioners themselves had assembled to promote back in the 1920s.
Where does all that lead us to today, Llywydd? Well, it leads us to a Wales that I think does still remain dedicated to the cause of peace, a nation of sanctuary, our future generations legislation, our investment in the Academi Heddwch, with its annual peace lecture, the investment we make in the Taith programme to allow young people from Wales to meet young people from other parts of the world, and to welcome young people from other parts of the world here to Wales. And, of course, the ongoing work of the Urdd. Now, I was lucky enough to go with the Urdd to the Nobel Peace Center in 2022 to celebrate the one hundredth peace message, the message of peace and goodwill from the young people of Wales to the young people of the world. That message reached an astonishing 10 million other people around the world. This year, of course, the Urdd intend the peace petition to be the subject of that annual message in 2024.
Llywydd, I wanted to end with two contrasting stories, both from just the last couple of months. In the autumn of last year, I went to Glynneath. I went to a service, a service that, as the order of service said, was a service to remember and acknowledge the shame and the injustice meted out to Private William Jones during that first world war. One of Kitchener's recruits to the army, a member of the ninth battalion Royal Welch Fusiliers, he arrived back at Neath on a journey that nobody could understand and he couldn't account for. He had run away from the war. He was arrested by Welsh people. He was handed over to the authorities. He was—I must think of the right word—he was executed as a deserter in the first world war. He was 17 years old, and, more than 100 years later, and thanks to the fantastic work of that local historian and campaigner Robert King, his name was put on to the memorial there in Glynneath with all those others from that village who had lost their lives in the first world war. There is his commemoration.
Only a couple of months later, a blue plaque was placed in Aberystwyth, a blue plaque to commemorate the work of the petitioners and all those people who they enthused across Wales to put their names to that petition, another side of Welsh history, another side of our relationship with warfare and with peace. There, in a couple of months, the worst and the best of our history. I'm sure that it is the ambition of most Senedd Members that, in our time, and when we have that opportunity, we would like to be on the best side of our history. That's why this short debate has been so worthwhile this afternoon. Llywydd, diolch yn fawr.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Thank you to the First Minister, and to everyone who contributed to that very special debate. Good night.

The meeting ended at 18:39.

QNR

Questions to the Minister for Climate Change

Joel James: Will the Minister provide an update on the timescale for implementing a targeted seagrass-restoration scheme?

Julie James: I remain fully dedicated to our Programme for Government commitment to develop a targeted seagrass restoration scheme. We are working closely with stakeholders, such as Project Seagrass and WWF, to identify critical interventions. I am convening a roundtable event next month, further discussing actions and support we need to undertake.

Questions to the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language

Jane Dodds: What consideration has the Minister given to how changes to the school year would impact rural tourism and the economy in Mid and West Wales?

Jeremy Miles: The recent consultation on Reform of the School Year provided an opportunity for everyone across Wales to share their views on the proposals. The findings, including information on any impacts, will now be considered carefully.

Mark Isherwood: Will the Minister confirm Welsh Government policy for school exclusion in Wales?

Jeremy Miles: Welsh Government guidance is clear that exclusion should be a matter of last resort when a wide range of other strategies have been tried without success.

Questions to the Deputy Minister for Climate Change

Janet Finch-Saunders: What lessons has the Welsh Government learnt from the rent cap in Scotland?

Lee Waters: Evidence on the impacts of the rent cap in Scotland has been submitted in response to our Green Paper Consultation on housing adequacy and fair rents. This is being considered, alongside other evidence, to inform the development of a White Paper to be published later this year.

Jenny Rathbone: What plans does the Welsh Government have to raise the minimum heat efficiency of private-rented housing?

Lee Waters: Homes that are rented privately are required to meet the Domestic Minimum Efficient Standards set by the UK Government. We continue to work with UK Government to understand how these standards can be set, to increase the requirements of private sector landlords and increase the quality of Welsh housing.